Community Chat

[Oznell]

Yes, I was so pleased to hear that he was sitting up in bed and interacting positively with medical staff!  May he continue to improve.  In other good news, was also glad to hear that Rand Paul has recovered, now testing negative for virus, and is volunteering at a local hospital.

[BrandiDavis]

@pitdakota  As you know I always agree with you :-) I would like to add that I'm all for them doing more research/studies on the medication, but my point was IF you were in a situation and had been diagnosed with COVID-19 RIGHT NOW (as time isn't on our side) and ALL other treatment options had failed...I would think that ANYONE would try this!! I'm not advocating for people to self medicate...of course you would only take this medication under the care of a physician. 

Sadly though, as with the fish cleaner incident, there are always going to be people who lack common sense. 

I also agree that it has become political. I think it's sad that just b/c a certain person mentioned it (I believe to inspire hope) now some groups of people think it's garbage. Never ceases to amaze me that something that could SAVE lives would be dismissed just b/c of something like that. It's crazy.

I really hope everyone can just come together during this time b/c that is what we truly need right now!!

[pitdakota]

@BrandiDavis, all I can say is that if I am unfortunate enough to contract this virus and find myself in a situation in which my condition is deteriorating, as long as I could speak.....I would talk with my doctor at the time about all of the available treatment options out there and which one would be most appropriate for me.

You say if all other treatment options had failed.  Well, I would probably die before they had a chance to even try all the different treatment options could even be used.  I think that is one thing that people need to realize.  There are many, many different clinical trials going on right now with medications that already exist out there.  It is always possible that my doctor could get me added as a part of the clinical trial.  That kind of stuff happens all the time across this country well before this virus was even known.

It might be that I might be a better candidate  for them to try something like Sarilumab which is an interleukin-6 inhibitor.  In another small sample when it was used on patients with severe pneumonia associated with COVID-19 this med was given to 21 patients.  75% of those patients improved significantly within 48 hours with temps dropping and the need for oxygen supplementation dramatically reduced. 19 of the 21 patients totally recovered and were discharged from the hospital successfully.  The other 2 were making marked improvement at the time they released their data on the use of this medical treatment.

So why isn't this being talked about as much?  However, it still falls in the same category.  It was not a randomized clinical trial and it was a very small number of patients.  So it needs to be studied further in large clinical trials.  There are current clinical trials on this medication taking place.  Along with several other medications out there that have similar stories behind them.

I don't think it is necessarily anyone thinks it is garbage.  But in medical research one understands that when you use it on just a number of patients in which random selection is not taking place, one cannot assure that the results are a direct cause of the specific treatment.  Could be that someone was going to improve anyway, no matter what medication they received.  Could be there were receiving some other treatment which was not totally recognized at the that time which might be responsible for improvement.  One can't say with any reason without controlling what are called "variables" that it can be determined a specific treatment is the most probable cause of the outcome for the patients' response.

  That is true whether it is hydroxycloroquine or sarliumab.  It has to be studied where they can minimize confounding variables, use on a large number of subjects, and randomly assign into the treatment group to be able to really know what the effect of that specific treatment is and if it safe for certain types of patients. 

I am holding out hope that there are multiple successful studies on several different medications.  Personally,  I don't care what ends up being identified as a successful treatment option, I just want something to turn out in clinical trials to be a successful treatment option.  

[tsavorite]

I agree and hope that many of these possible treatments turn out to work for a good number of people.  The more the better I say!  But I always say that LOL!

What may work for some won't work for others for many different reasons.  Having more then one option is the way to go.  

[pitdakota]

@BrandiDavis, also wanted to address your mention of the people that took the tablets used for aquariums.  That is the least of the crazy things that are happening out there due to the public press and false reassurances that hydroxychloroquine doesnt' "kill anyone".

That is patently false.  Specifically hydroxychloroquine prolongs the QT interval of the cardiac rhythm cycle.  Prolonging the QT interval can really have serious consequences causing lethal cardiac dysrhythmia problems.  There are cases out there in which people have obtained the medication and just started to take it in order to prevent COVID-19.  One patient that used her mother's prescription after her mother died is now in a critical care unit because she experienced something called torsades de pointes which the docs have directly attributed to her taking her deceased mother's prescription.

 It is beginning to look like the wild west out there with people trying anything to get their hands on this medication thinking it will prevent even contracting the coronavirus.  

Here is a link to the physician's desk reference which is widely used by doctors and nursing for information on medications.  It is techinical, but scroll down to the precautions/contraindications sections and read the section starting with "bradycardia, cardiac arrhythmias", etc.  Currently, these are the precautions and some conditions in which those types of patients should not take the medication (contraindications).  One can easily see there are many:

https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquine-sulfate-1911 

In the meantime, @JaneMarple is correct.  A group of doctors in Nice, France abruptly stopped giving their covid patients hydroxychloroquine because of the number of cardiac complications that started to occur in their group of patients. 

Hard to tell by the limited specific data coming out at this point as to what specific complications were occurring.  I guess one concern is that they are learning that heart damage is something that is occurring in some Covid-19 patients.  Theory is the virus starts to attact the heart muscle just like it does the lungs.  In those cases it could be that this type of medication combined with Zithromax (which also has cardiac side effects) is causing some serious cardiac challenges.  Just a thought I have at the time in reading the initial information. I don't know that for sure.  

Just too early to tell.  But controlled clinical trials will help flush out some of this information & provide guidance for treatment or not.  

That is why I advocate to just let the doctors do their job.  It is getting to the point if a doctor doesn't want to put someone on this medication because they have underlying cardiac conditions, patient families will be suing just because of all the stuff they are hearing about this medication without understanding the concerns and limitations it might have for particular people.   And the point?  Doesn't have to be this way.  Doesn't need to be political.  Let the docs and ARNP's do their job.  

[suzyQ3]

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@Stray wrote:
This is a new virus and no one could have anticipated it or how bad it would be. Other countries have different populations, size and quite frankly, much more disciplined. So please stop with the politics. I live in an epicenter in NJ and have lost two friends and four hospitalized. It’s very easy to Quarterback we you don’t have to make big decisions.

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@Stray, this is demonstrably false. There were ample warnings early on.

There will be a reckoning. That is not quarterbacking but reality.

[Drythe]

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@pitdakota wrote:

@BrandiDavis, also wanted to address your mention of the people that took the tablets used for aquariums.  That is the least of the crazy things that are happening out there due to the public press and false reassurances that hydroxychloroquine doesnt' "kill anyone".

That is patently false.  Specifically hydroxychloroquine prolongs the QT interval of the cardiac rhythm cycle.  Prolonging the QT interval can really have serious consequences causing lethal cardiac dysrhythmia problems.  There are cases out there in which people have obtained the medication and just started to take it in order to prevent COVID-19.  One patient that used her mother's prescription after her mother died is now in a critical care unit because she experienced something called torsades de pointes which the docs have directly attributed to her taking her deceased mother's prescription.

 It is beginning to look like the wild west out there with people trying anything to get their hands on this medication thinking it will prevent even contracting the coronavirus.  

Here is a link to the physician's desk reference which is widely used by doctors and nursing for information on medications.  It is techinical, but scroll down to the precautions/contraindications sections and read the section starting with "bradycardia, cardiac arrhythmias", etc.  Currently, these are the precautions and some conditions in which those types of patients should not take the medication (contraindications).  One can easily see there are many:

https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquine-sulfate-1911 

In the meantime, @JaneMarple is correct.  A group of doctors in Nice, France abruptly stopped giving their covid patients hydroxychloroquine because of the number of cardiac complications that started to occur in their group of patients. 

Hard to tell by the limited specific data coming out at this point as to what specific complications were occurring.  I guess one concern is that they are learning that heart damage is something that is occurring in some Covid-19 patients.  Theory is the virus starts to attact the heart muscle just like it does the lungs.  In those cases it could be that this type of medication combined with Zithromax (which also has cardiac side effects) is causing some serious cardiac challenges.  Just a thought I have at the time in reading the initial information. I don't know that for sure.  

Just too early to tell.  But controlled clinical trials will help flush out some of this information & provide guidance for treatment or not.  

That is why I advocate to just let the doctors do their job.  It is getting to the point if a doctor doesn't want to put someone on this medication because they have underlying cardiac conditions, patient families will be suing just because of all the stuff they are hearing about this medication without understanding the concerns and limitations it might have for particular people.   And the point?  Doesn't have to be this way.  Doesn't need to be political.  Let the docs and ARNP's do their job.  

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@pitdakota 

Thank you for following up on this.  As I mentioned, I had a totally unexpected reaction to prescription use of this drug. I developed CIDP in reaction to it, Thanks to the Docs at MAYO I survived. Unexpected Things Do Happen.

So, my hesitance is not political.   Just a caution that nothing is the End-All-Be-All, don't take anything without good medical advice. Hopefully there will be good, viable options for everyone.  Keep yourself informed, hopefully there will be lots of options.

P.S.  We just had video, on-line early graduation of RN's and they start working tonight!  Bless them all.

[pitdakota]

@Drythe, thank goodness for the Mayo clinic!  So yes, you speak from experience.  It is just unethical to tout a medication as not harming anyone when it has been known to have side effects for certain people.  

And kudos to those new RNs!!!  Well, at least I hope they all pass their boards. 

[deepwaterdotter]

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@Oznell wrote:

Yes, I was so pleased to hear that he was sitting up in bed and interacting positively with medical staff!  May he continue to improve.  In other good news, was also glad to hear that Rand Paul has recovered, now testing negative for virus, and is volunteering at a local hospital.

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And so glad to see that Jedediah Bila is recovering.