Community Chat

[stevieb]

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@liliblu wrote:

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@stevieb wrote:

The unfortunate reality is that in any society, priorities have to be established, just as we, as individuals, have to establish priorities for ourselves. Often, some of us disagree with how societal priorities are established and with what they end up being. This, alone, is fodder for extensive discussion and likely, were it to ensue, for significant disagreement. As for this situation, again, we can agree to disagree @liliblu, but in my hierarchy this little gang of thugs don't come out near the top of the list. Those who want to attempt to be their savior are free to do so, but my time, compassion and resources go elsewhere. That's my choice.

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I have no problem agreeing to disagree.  But if our children are not a priorty then we as nation are doomed.

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A bit of a gross generalization, I'd say, to suggest children are not a priority. Children are prioritized in many ways in our society. Some might even say that, as a group, they're unfairly prioritized above other groups in need. Regardless, fair or not, just as not all elderly or sick or frail or otherwise needy people make it to the head of the line, not all children will make it to the head of the line either, and there is something to be said about applying limited resources where they might do the most good and not, to coin a phrase, throwing good money after bad.

[wvumountiefan]

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@stevieb wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@stevieb wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@eadu4 wrote:

This happened at 3 am.  A 10 year old and 14 year old out at 3 am.  I think that tells you all you need to know about their parents (if there are 2 parents at home)  And it tells you all you need to know about their parenting "skills".  The fact these 2 were on the street at 3 am and commited cold blooded murder says all you need to know about the 2 of them.  Regardless of any "horrors" they may have seen at home, these two are most likely not going to change but rather wind up with more future contributions to a rap sheet.  They will not get any significant punishment and will most certainly be out on the street again in no time.  Sadly we have almost become numb to violent crime like this and with very little actual punishment that fits the crime anymore.  This is disgusting and happening more frequently.  It will be interesting to see what the charges are and the outcome of any trial.  

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These are children.  They are not irredeemable.  It is this kind of attitude that is hurting our country.  They will be punished but they probably fell into group or hive mentality.  No thought was involved.  

I hope there are consequences for the parents.  Children this age have no business outside at 3 am.  

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Oh for the love of heaven, they. beat. an. old. man. to. death.

Enough with the excuses. I don't care how bad their parenting, (though yes the parent or parents should be prosecuted along with the little gargoyles they've spawned) or other factors that no doubt will be cited. As a society we simply can't keep looking the other way and trying to explain away sadistic, barbaric, criminal behavior, no matter the age of the criminals that perpetrate it.

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I am not excusing what these children (not gargoyles) did.  But how we punich and deal with children should be different than how we deal with adults.  We don't allow 14 year olds to drive, drink alcohol, vote, or sign contracts.  Why?  Their brains are not fully developed.  They do not think through the consequences of their actions.  I can bet that they did not think they could kill a person with a traffic cone.  They will be punished but they are not irredeemable monsters.  

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We'll agree to disagree. I don't personally care whether their brains are fully developed or not... Any and all of them are old enough to know that you don't beat someone for no good reason... Certainly, most of us know that before the time we enter school and most children do know there are consequences to bad behavior... Tell you what, you 'redeem' these precious children, I'll protect myself and steer clear. As far as it goes, in my opinion, this oh so understanding mind set is a big part of the problem. 

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It all starts at home! I am sick of ppl blaming everything but the ones that are responsible for this act! The ones responsible are the kids and the parents... period! People want lawlessness.. and just to be able to do what they want without any consequences.... I say BS! It's not the responsibility of the schools to fix this problem either... it starts at home. Period

[shoesnbags]

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@stevieb wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@stevieb wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@eadu4 wrote:

This happened at 3 am.  A 10 year old and 14 year old out at 3 am.  I think that tells you all you need to know about their parents (if there are 2 parents at home)  And it tells you all you need to know about their parenting "skills".  The fact these 2 were on the street at 3 am and commited cold blooded murder says all you need to know about the 2 of them.  Regardless of any "horrors" they may have seen at home, these two are most likely not going to change but rather wind up with more future contributions to a rap sheet.  They will not get any significant punishment and will most certainly be out on the street again in no time.  Sadly we have almost become numb to violent crime like this and with very little actual punishment that fits the crime anymore.  This is disgusting and happening more frequently.  It will be interesting to see what the charges are and the outcome of any trial.  

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These are children.  They are not irredeemable.  It is this kind of attitude that is hurting our country.  They will be punished but they probably fell into group or hive mentality.  No thought was involved.  

I hope there are consequences for the parents.  Children this age have no business outside at 3 am.  

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Oh for the love of heaven, they. beat. an. old. man. to. death.

Enough with the excuses. I don't care how bad their parenting, (though yes the parent or parents should be prosecuted along with the little gargoyles they've spawned) or other factors that no doubt will be cited. As a society we simply can't keep looking the other way and trying to explain away sadistic, barbaric, criminal behavior, no matter the age of the criminals that perpetrate it.

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I am not excusing what these children (not gargoyles) did.  But how we punich and deal with children should be different than how we deal with adults.  We don't allow 14 year olds to drive, drink alcohol, vote, or sign contracts.  Why?  Their brains are not fully developed.  They do not think through the consequences of their actions.  I can bet that they did not think they could kill a person with a traffic cone.  They will be punished but they are not irredeemable monsters.  

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We'll agree to disagree. I don't personally care whether their brains are fully developed or not... Any and all of them are old enough to know that you don't beat someone for no good reason... Certainly, most of us know that before the time we enter school and most children do know there are consequences to bad behavior... Tell you what, you 'redeem' these precious children, I'll protect myself and steer clear. As far as it goes, in my opinion, this oh so understanding mind set is a big part of the problem. 

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Since @stevieb continues to voice my exact feelings on this matter, all I can add is that I agree totally.  And I say that as a former teacher, with graduate level study of child development. 

There are differing ways to look at the same facts.  Yes, their brains are not fully developed.  But there is also the fact that adult killers often have a history that stretches back into childhood acts of cruelty. 

I don't see this sort of behavior - beating an old man to death - in the same category as say, a teenager who shoots and kills a store clerk in a robbery gone bad.  He went there originally for money, and shot someone in a panic. That's not the same as deliberately hurting someone and apparently taking pleasure in it.  That's not just an undeveloped brain, that's something seriously lacking that is not going to be "fixed" by counseling or whatever.  We're all free to disagree on this, but all the kindness to criminals is clearly NOT WORKING.

[stevieb]

I agree with you @shoesnbags, there are offenses where leniency makes a good deal of sense. This is not among them. There is something very highly disturbing about a group of children, tweens and young teens, for no reason, literally beating a man until he falls and dies. To me, this is where a line gets drawn between being compassionate and being down right foolish.

[liliblu]

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@Lucky Charm wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@stevieb wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@candys mine wrote:

I don't remember things being THIS bad 3 years ago.  I really don't.

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America is a violent country.  We celebrate violence in this country.  Grown adults assaulted uniformed officers as pushed and fought their way into the U.S. Capitol.  Sandy Hook elementary was the scene of a mass shooting in 2012.  The Columbine mass school shooting happened in 1999.  This is a country where lynchings used to occur on a regular basis.  This isn't new.  We just better access to information now.

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Yes, it is a violent country and it's getting more violent and along with other actions that need to be taken to curb violence and to curb the media, we need to stop turning the other way when people of all ages act out and stop seeking reasons to explain away bad behavior. 

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Understanding why something occurs is not explaining it away.  No one is saying the children should not face consequences.  How they are punished should take their age into account.  It should take the circumstances of their life into account.  

We tend to ignore our societal problems until something like this occurs.  There are solutions but no one wants to fund those solutions.  It shows what we value.  I say America does not value children or life.

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As someone whose great grandfather immigrated to Philadelphia in 1906 with just $7 in his pocket, he did what every man should do.  He worked his a*s off, long hard days unloading ships to support his family as best he could.

There was crime and hatred and racism towards him and many others. 

But you go to work, you come home, you sit and eat with your family, you discipline them as they are not angels, you love them, you [may] pray for them. 

And you get up and go to work the next morning.

It wasn't all drudgery, there was music and dancing in the home as there was extended family members in the surrounding areas.  There were neighbors of the same ethnicity that you mingled with on your street.

What could have been different for these parents of these 7 different children from what my great grandfather went through in Philadelphia over 115 years ago?

eta: @liliblu 

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Sounds like he was a good man.  But, your grandfather did no more than mine and many others did.  He worked just as long as hard as your grandfather.  he raised 7 children who became productive adults.  My grandfather also endured racism and bigotry.  But that doesn't mean that everyone I cannot have empathy for people whose life stories are different from mine.  You wrote of the sense of community and the happy times with family and friends.  Not everyone has that.  There are those who bad times far outweigh the good.  There are problems and situations we may never know about that lead to some behaviors we see.  There are ways to mitigate that and intervene before something tragic happens.  But that takes resources many do not want to spare.  It's not about putting money in people's pockets.  It's about funding the programs that work.  I have a laundry list.  It comes from people who work in this space.  But I don't know if this post is the right place for it.  

[ThinkingOutLoud]

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@liliblu wrote:

So many assumptions in the comments.  I agree that children this age should not have been outside at that time of the morning.  Yes, this shows a lack supervision and parenting.  But the comments that these kids have done this before or something similiar is specualtion.  The comments that their parents are criminals is speculation.  Neglectful?  Yes.  

We don't to believe that good and decent kids can do terrible things.  But sometimes that is the case.  We have been failing the children of this country for a long time.  They are bombarded with violence from an early age.  Movies, television, and videos games that celebrate violence.  Then we're surprised when they act out in a violent way.  

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But it's the parent's job to keep them from seeing all that.

[ThinkingOutLoud]

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@liliblu wrote:

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@proudlyfromNJ wrote:

This is OT but I've noticed quite a few mass shootings in other countries. I guess crazy things are happening all over, not just here.

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Look at the numbers.  These incidents are still rare in other countries.  We cannot go a month in America without a mass shooting occuring.

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What defines 'mass shooting' seems purposefully deceiving. just fyi

[ThinkingOutLoud]

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@liliblu wrote:

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@stevieb wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@stevieb wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@eadu4 wrote:

This happened at 3 am.  A 10 year old and 14 year old out at 3 am.  I think that tells you all you need to know about their parents (if there are 2 parents at home)  And it tells you all you need to know about their parenting "skills".  The fact these 2 were on the street at 3 am and commited cold blooded murder says all you need to know about the 2 of them.  Regardless of any "horrors" they may have seen at home, these two are most likely not going to change but rather wind up with more future contributions to a rap sheet.  They will not get any significant punishment and will most certainly be out on the street again in no time.  Sadly we have almost become numb to violent crime like this and with very little actual punishment that fits the crime anymore.  This is disgusting and happening more frequently.  It will be interesting to see what the charges are and the outcome of any trial.  

---

These are children.  They are not irredeemable.  It is this kind of attitude that is hurting our country.  They will be punished but they probably fell into group or hive mentality.  No thought was involved.  

I hope there are consequences for the parents.  Children this age have no business outside at 3 am.  

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Oh for the love of heaven, they. beat. an. old. man. to. death.

Enough with the excuses. I don't care how bad their parenting, (though yes the parent or parents should be prosecuted along with the little gargoyles they've spawned) or other factors that no doubt will be cited. As a society we simply can't keep looking the other way and trying to explain away sadistic, barbaric, criminal behavior, no matter the age of the criminals that perpetrate it.

---

I am not excusing what these children (not gargoyles) did.  But how we punich and deal with children should be different than how we deal with adults.  We don't allow 14 year olds to drive, drink alcohol, vote, or sign contracts.  Why?  Their brains are not fully developed.  They do not think through the consequences of their actions.  I can bet that they did not think they could kill a person with a traffic cone.  They will be punished but they are not irredeemable monsters.  

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We'll agree to disagree. I don't personally care whether their brains are fully developed or not... Any and all of them are old enough to know that you don't beat someone for no good reason... Certainly, most of us know that before the time we enter school and most children do know there are consequences to bad behavior... Tell you what, you 'redeem' these precious children, I'll protect myself and steer clear. As far as it goes, in my opinion, this oh so understanding mind set is a big part of the problem. 

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I will do what I can.  I know people who do work with "these precious children".  I've heard their success stories and of the failures (more success than failure).  I thank God for people with such empathy and compassion.  They are the people who are really making this a better world.

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No, parents who raise their kids right are the backbone of making the world a better place. Family is the basic unit of society after all.

[Lucky Charm]

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@ThinkingOutLoud wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

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@proudlyfromNJ wrote:

This is OT but I've noticed quite a few mass shootings in other countries. I guess crazy things are happening all over, not just here.

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Look at the numbers.  These incidents are still rare in other countries.  We cannot go a month in America without a mass shooting occuring.

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What defines 'mass shooting' seems purposefully deceiving. just fyi

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Honestly, again, back to Philadelphia, on Monday a man was shot at 45 times.  FORTY FIVE TIMES.  That to me is also a mass shooting.  A very hateful finger is pulling that trigger.  But I've actually seen that high of a number before in casings collected at a crime scene directed at one person.  

[liliblu]

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@ThinkingOutLoud wrote:

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@liliblu wrote:

So many assumptions in the comments.  I agree that children this age should not have been outside at that time of the morning.  Yes, this shows a lack supervision and parenting.  But the comments that these kids have done this before or something similiar is specualtion.  The comments that their parents are criminals is speculation.  Neglectful?  Yes.  

We don't to believe that good and decent kids can do terrible things.  But sometimes that is the case.  We have been failing the children of this country for a long time.  They are bombarded with violence from an early age.  Movies, television, and videos games that celebrate violence.  Then we're surprised when they act out in a violent way.  

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But it's the parent's job to keep them from seeing all that.

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Yes, in a perfect word they would.  But I just saw a news story the other day about children and the Metaverse.  Kids are navigating virtual reality without adult supervision.  They're encountering predatory adults.  This is on top of all of the social media platforms they're on.  Facebook, Twitter, Snap Chat, TikTok, Instagram, etc..  then there is cable and the streaming services they have access to.  If both parents work outside of the home then who is monitoring this?  Many parents use a smart phone, tablet, or laptop as their babysitter in the evenings.  I forgot to mention the online games like Call of Duty.  Parents are not doing a great job of shielding their children from violence.