Community Chat

[SuiGeneris]

On 4/6/2015 scotttie said:

Hi Jubilant: thank you for your reply.

Yes, SuiGeneris, I saw earlier your post and that info was why I asked again since it wasn't answered.

I am totally sympathetic to their cause ...I just am confused about why it is an issue now when it is too late?

Me, too.

[jubilant]

On 4/6/2015 scotttie said:

Hi Jubilant: thank you for your reply.

Yes, SuiGeneris, I saw earlier your post and that info was why I asked again since it wasn't answered.

I am totally sympathetic to their cause ...I just am confused about why it is an issue now when it is too late?

Scottie: I never knew anything about this before reading it here. Didn't know about the other discussion that went poof either. I have been searching online to try to understand this story better. A title came up....... Science, Culture Clash Over Sacred Mountain........ I think it may answer a lot of your questions....it did mine. If you can't get it by typing in above title try www.moolelo.com/maunakea-latimes.html-26k It's pretty sad...I think.

[NoelSeven]

The people native to Hawaii have fought takeover ever since it became clear Americans were taking control and wanted their islands.

Over the years protesting, they've lost so much of their culture, not to mention their rights.

I'd suggest it isn't that it's become an issue now, it's that perhaps the media is finally paying attention to them and the abuse of what is all rightfully theirs.

[NoelSeven]

Indigenous Religious Traditions

Information here on what has been happening on Mauna Kea:

http://sites.coloradocollege.edu/indigenoustraditions/sacred-lands/sacred-lands-mauna-kea/

""Too Many Telescopes""

[scotttie]

On 4/7/2015 jubilant said:

On 4/6/2015 scotttie said:

Hi Jubilant: thank you for your reply.

Yes, SuiGeneris, I saw earlier your post and that info was why I asked again since it wasn't answered.

I am totally sympathetic to their cause ...I just am confused about why it is an issue now when it is too late?

Scottie: I never knew anything about this before reading it here. Didn't know about the other discussion that went poof either. I have been searching online to try to understand this story better. A title came up....... Science, Culture Clash Over Sacred Mountain........ I think it may answer a lot of your questions....it did mine. If you can't get it by typing in above title try www.moolelo.com/maunakea-latimes.html-26k It's pretty sad...I think.

Thank you so much Jubilant. This article did indeed answer my question. Here is a quote from the article:

. "When the first telescopes rose from the mountain--one a year in 1968, 1969 and 1970--there was not a peep of dissent from Hawaiians. Thirty years and nearly $1 billion worth of telescopes later, though, Hawaii is a very different place.

A once fledgling Hawaiian movement has grown into a vocal political power in the islands. There are calls for secession from the United States, a return of native Hawaiian lands and, on Mauna Kea, a moratorium on telescopes and even their removal."

The article has so much more than this and I hope others will read it, it explains so much. I couldn't get your link to work Jubilant (I did get it to work by typing in what you suggested into google )but maybe this link to your recommended article will work:

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/18/news/mn-39418

[NoelSeven]

On 4/7/2015 scotttie said:

On 4/7/2015 jubilant said:

On 4/6/2015 scotttie said:

Hi Jubilant: thank you for your reply.

Yes, SuiGeneris, I saw earlier your post and that info was why I asked again since it wasn't answered.

I am totally sympathetic to their cause ...I just am confused about why it is an issue now when it is too late?

Scottie: I never knew anything about this before reading it here. Didn't know about the other discussion that went poof either. I have been searching online to try to understand this story better. A title came up....... Science, Culture Clash Over Sacred Mountain........ I think it may answer a lot of your questions....it did mine. If you can't get it by typing in above title try www.moolelo.com/maunakea-latimes.html-26k It's pretty sad...I think.

Thank you so much Jubilant. This article did indeed answer my question. Here is a quote from the article:

. "When the first telescopes rose from the mountain--one a year in 1968, 1969 and 1970--there was not a peep of dissent from Hawaiians. Thirty years and nearly $1 billion worth of telescopes later, though, Hawaii is a very different place.

A once fledgling Hawaiian movement has grown into a vocal political power in the islands. There are calls for secession from the United States, a return of native Hawaiian lands and, on Mauna Kea, a moratorium on telescopes and even their removal."

The article has so much more than this and I hope others will read it, it explains so much. I couldn't get your link to work Jubilant (I did get it to work by typing in what you suggested into google )but maybe this link to your recommended article will work:

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/18/news/mn-39418

This is a good article, but it is 14 years old. I haven't seen anything online that really gives a good update.

This is good to know:

Today, Pisciotta is angry that astronomers pay Hawaii just $1 per year to use land seized by Americans a century ago. She claims that, in their race to build bigger and better telescopes, the scientists have trampled not only on rare insects, native birds and the mountain's fragile geological landscape, but also on centuries of religious and cultural tradition.

"It truly is not Hawaiians versus astronomy," said Pisciotta, who is still proud of her work on the telescope but can barely contain her exasperation at astronomers. "But they never once have said, 'We screwed up and we're sorry.' They never once said, 'Thank you for letting us use your sacred temple.' "

Hawaiians imbue many natural phenomena--volcanoes, rocks, the ocean--with religious significance. Mauna Kea, at 13,769 feet, is so sacred because it is the closest thing in Hawaii, indeed in all of Polynesia, to the heavens. The towering volcano is considered the piko, or navel, of Hawaii, from which all else arose.

[jubilant]

On 4/7/2015 scotttie said:

On 4/7/2015 jubilant said:

On 4/6/2015 scotttie said:

Hi Jubilant: thank you for your reply.

Yes, SuiGeneris, I saw earlier your post and that info was why I asked again since it wasn't answered.

I am totally sympathetic to their cause ...I just am confused about why it is an issue now when it is too late?

Scottie: I never knew anything about this before reading it here. Didn't know about the other discussion that went poof either. I have been searching online to try to understand this story better. A title came up....... Science, Culture Clash Over Sacred Mountain........ I think it may answer a lot of your questions....it did mine. If you can't get it by typing in above title try www.moolelo.com/maunakea-latimes.html-26k It's pretty sad...I think.

Thank you so much Jubilant. This article did indeed answer my question. Here is a quote from the article:

. "When the first telescopes rose from the mountain--one a year in 1968, 1969 and 1970--there was not a peep of dissent from Hawaiians. Thirty years and nearly $1 billion worth of telescopes later, though, Hawaii is a very different place.

A once fledgling Hawaiian movement has grown into a vocal political power in the islands. There are calls for secession from the United States, a return of native Hawaiian lands and, on Mauna Kea, a moratorium on telescopes and even their removal."

The article has so much more than this and I hope others will read it, it explains so much. I couldn't get your link to work Jubilant (I did get it to work by typing in what you suggested into google )but maybe this link to your recommended article will work:

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/18/news/mn-39418

Your welcome, Scottie. It is too bad this happened. It seems to me the older natives were a bit too trusting of government to do right by them and now the younger natives are stepping up to the plate before there is nothing left. Either very poor communication on both sides or total government takeover....I can't quite make up my mind. I do think it sounds like a complicated mess now.

[jubilant]

Noel: I was shocked when I read about the $1 per year...surely they get more from it than this???? I wonder if they had any idea at the time what this would lead to? What does the government say it does for the natives? Also I wonder if many of the natives felt it would provide more and better jobs for them so they didn't say much? I guess I need to read a little more. It seems very sad to lose so much. Of course, what the government calls "progress" is not usually what I call progress. Still, I feel a little "torn" on this one and think the least our government could do is stop and listen and try to come to some kind of understanding and show some compassion. It doesn't sound like they have done that.

[scotttie]

On 4/8/2015 jubilant said:

Noel: I was shocked when I read about the $1 per year...surely they get more from it than this???? I wonder if they had any idea at the time what this would lead to? What does the government say it does for the natives? Also I wonder if many of the natives felt it would provide more and better jobs for them so they didn't say much? I guess I need to read a little more. It seems very sad to lose so much. Of course, what the government calls "progress" is not usually what I call progress. Still, I feel a little "torn" on this one and think the least our government could do is stop and listen and try to come to some kind of understanding and show some compassion. It doesn't sound like they have done that.

Yes, I think that is another part of the equation. They have been totally inconsiderate of the Native Hawaiians religious items on the mountain and have been completely disrespectful (according to the article). From what I read, the Hawaiians may have been willing to co-exist but the astronomy group have routinely ignored their concerns.

[NoelSeven]

On 4/8/2015 jubilant said:

Noel: I was shocked when I read about the $1 per year...surely they get more from it than this???? I wonder if they had any idea at the time what this would lead to? What does the government say it does for the natives? Also I wonder if many of the natives felt it would provide more and better jobs for them so they didn't say much? I guess I need to read a little more. It seems very sad to lose so much. Of course, what the government calls "progress" is not usually what I call progress. Still, I feel a little "torn" on this one and think the least our government could do is stop and listen and try to come to some kind of understanding and show some compassion. It doesn't sound like they have done that.

jubilant, we used to visit Hawaii quite often. Mauna Kea is on The Big Island of Hawaii. They have numerous places there that are important to the Hawaiian people... like the Royal Palace and the sacred beach area which was a zone for sanctuary.

You can't visit those places without finding out how the people native to Hawaii have suffered under the American government and how they have fought to keep the areas important to them, especially the sacred areas and the ancient markings.

The article from Scottie proves they have fought the telescope issue for years and years but it just keeps getting worse for them.