Community Chat

[Pearlee]

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  @Zernia Rose wrote:
  

  @Pearlee They are offensive to many people, especially Blacks. It is ironic that your mother purchased the brooch while in South Africa for visits with your ancestors that escaped Nazism during a period when Apartiheid laws began in 1948 and didn't end until the 1990s.  

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@Zernia Rose  I don't see the irony. She went to relatives for their landmark occasions, i.e. weddings, funerals, etc. She did tell us some extremely appalling incidents she had witnessed about apartheid when she got home.

I am not able to see why the beautiful Blackamoor jewelry pieces are offensive, but I'm not black so I'll just accept people's words for that. To me they appear to glorify black people, not denigrate them in any way.

[Zernia Rose]

@Pearlee The irony is that your relatives were subject to atrocities in one country. They found a home in a country that denigrated Blacks , took their lands, murdered many of them, denied them education, provided substandard medical care, etc.  Just as those who were Jewish in Europe were placed in ghettoes, Blacks in South African were place in Bantustans.  Similarly, as Jews were required to wear yellow stars, Blacks were required to show passes giving them the privilege of being in their own country.  A great play that provides some insight is Sizwe Banzi is Dead written by Athol Fugard.

You might read, The Art and History of Black Memorabilia by Larry Buster for a reasoned discussion about why the Blackamoors are a remnant of colonialism that many find offensive.  Think about the most vile visual depictions of Jews and you would likely take offense..  I saw this banner hanging on a fraternity house of a Southerniuniversity:  "Jesus Saves But Moses Invests."  Hurtful, don't you think.   Yes, it is ignorance on display but it permeates the culture.  

I'm glad that your relatives found refuge in South Africa.  Many Jews were participants in the anti-Apartheid movement. They also faced continued anti-Semitism.  On a visit to South Africa, one of our meetings was in an adult literacy center under the direction of Catholiic nuns.  I will never forget the painful, mournful discussions of Black South Africans telling us about their dislocation from their lands and placement on Bantustans. 

Responses to art vary and you feel the Blackamoors are beautiful.  But many others find them repulsive.

[JaneMarple]

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@Zernia Rose wrote:

@Pearlee The irony is that your relatives were subject to atrocities in one country. They found a home in a country that denigrated Blacks , took their lands, murdered many of them, denied them education, provided substandard medical care, etc.  Just as those who were Jewish in Europe were placed in ghettoes, Blacks in South African were place in Bantustans.  Similarly, as Jews were required to wear yellow stars, Blacks were required to show passes giving them the privilege of being in their own country.  A great play that provides some insight is Sizwe Banzi is Dead written by Athol Fugard.

You might read, The Art and History of Black Memorabilia by Larry Buster for a reasoned discussion about why the Blackamoors are a remnant of colonialism that many find offensive.  Think about the most vile visual depictions of Jews and you would likely take offense..  I saw this banner hanging on a fraternity house of a Southerniuniversity:  "Jesus Saves But Moses Invests."  Hurtful, don't you think.   Yes, it is ignorance on display but it permeates the culture.  

I'm glad that your relatives found refuge in South Africa.  Many Jews were participants in the anti-Apartheid movement. They also faced continued anti-Semitism.  On a visit to South Africa, one of our meetings was in an adult literacy center under the direction of Catholiic nuns.  I will never forget the painful, mournful discussions of Black South Africans telling us about their dislocation from their lands and placement on Bantustans. 

Responses to art vary and you feel the Blackamoors are beautiful.  But many others find them repulsive.

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Thank You @Zernia Rose 

[JaneMarple]

There's a new photo of the mistress Queen with her Blackamoor statues brought over from her Clarence House entry hall off to the side of her, I think it's tasteless and she doesn't care who it offends!

[Zernia Rose]

@JaneMarple  I saw the photo with her proudly posing. I was quite disgusted by it.

[Greeneyedlady21]

@JaneMarple It's been said that those are not Blackamoor statues and I sure hope they aren't.

My understanding is that Blackamoor anything romanticizes colonialism and slavery, and that is the complete opposite of anything beautiful and makes it obvious why it's considered offensive.

[Somertime]

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@JaneMarple wrote:

There's a new photo of the mistress Queen with her Blackamoor statues brought over from her Clarence House entry hall off to the side of her, I think it's tasteless and she doesn't care who it offends!

You are completely wrong in everything you have stated in this post.  I have posted this before on one of the threads that brought this up initially.  They are NOT Blackamoor statues and they have been in the Green Drawing Room of Buckingham Palace since 1915. 

https://www.rct.uk/collection/2717/the-weeping-women-candelabra

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[MorningLover]

@Somertime 

Yes,I remember you posting this on another thread. I found the same info. that you posted.

The weeping women candelabra 1811

Creator

BENJAMIN LEWIS VULLIAMY (1780-1854)

Description

Pair of five-light candelabra of patinated and gilt bronze with black marble in form of three partly draped female figures standing back to back, hands covering faces, on circular marble base with gilt-bronze bucrania and garlands of fruit. Gilt bronze stem with leaf-cups on candle-arms.

The Vulliamy family specialised in making and repairing clocks. From the 1790s, they produced bronze and gilt bronze objects of the highest quality. Often their role would be one of assembling parts made by different craftsmen, some of whom were directly employed by the family firm.

Twenty-one craftsmen were involved in the production of these candelabra alone, which were placed in Carlton House, the Prince Regent’s London residence.

Provenance

Recorded in the 1834 pictorial inventory of candelabra in George IV's possession. Supplied to George IV when Prince Regent for Carlton House; Benjamin-Louis Vulliamy passed on the cost of £350.0.11 to George IV in 1815 together with additional bill of £69 for his own design work; later recorded in the store room under the clock, Carlton House and in the Bow Drawing Room, Buckingham Palace. In 1915 they are recorded in the Green Drawing Room.

[Oznell]

Thanks for your research, and depicting the "Weeping Women" bronze and gilt candelabra, @Somertime ,  and @MorningLover .   You've done a service.  

The woman who originally made the unfounded claim and criticized the photograph showing the candelabra, has removed her tweet after learning the true provenance of the objects.

There's enough rancor and division in the world, without making false claims.

@Greeneyedlady21 ,  that you and I tend to look at things quite differently is true.  But I must say, I respect your intellectual honesty farther up the thread, in relating that there might not be truth to the claim that was made about the statues.  That's not always easy to do, in the midst of passionate discussions, pro and con. 

[Pearlee]

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@Greeneyedlady21 wrote:

@JaneMarple It's been said that those are not Blackamoor statues and I sure hope they aren't.

My understanding is that Blackamoor anything romanticizes colonialism and slavery, and that is the complete opposite of anything beautiful and makes it obvious why it's considered offensive.

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Some people will take offense at anything.  I don't see the jewelry as romanticizing colonialism at all. As I said above, the Blackamoor jewelry I've seen depicts black people as regal and elegant.

As for the irony of where my relatives went, perhaps if you were escaping Nazism and had to leave your homes quickly in the middle of the night as they did, you'd go where you were ABLE TO find passage to go. They weren't exactly booking a destination  vacation of their choice. You have no idea what you are talking about regarding my family 👎. @Zernia Rose