Beauty

[sonechko]

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wrote:

Hi @sonechko!  Hmmm how to answer your great questions? I don't want to offend anyone who loves their retinol or retin a and might take my opinions personally..

I use peptides instead of retinol, but that is only possible because I know which peptides to use. Most people don't have the inclination to gather and process all that info.

Retinol and Retin A (I'll refer to them both together as retinoids, and specify retinol or retin a only when I need to) are proven to work, in that they tell the skin to make new skin cells and collagen. But there are major downsides:

• Retinoids turn you into a vampire basically, and not in a good way. You can't let the sun touch your skin while you have a retinoid on it. If sun touches retinoids, the retinoids go bad and your skin gets attacked rather than helped. Even after you wash off the retinoid, your skin is more sensitive to sun and damages quicker and deeper.

• Retinoids are extremely unstable. Cosmetics manufacturers have to go to great lengths to include them in products that will be shelf stable and not go bad. Not just light, but air turns retinoids bad.
  
  And the manufacturers are greatly constrained in what ingredients they can put in a retinoid product because it plays poorly with other ingredients in a formulation. That's why retinoid products with a significant, effective retinoid load in them tend to be very simple and basic formulations.
  
  Even antioxidants in retinoid formulas are only there to help stabilize the retinoid. They don't get a chance to help your skin because their effectiveness is used up within the bottle helping the retinoid.

• Retin A makes your skin sluff off faster. My skin turns over fast enough on its own. Most people don't actually need their skin to shed faster. It's not a particularly common problem.
  
  Speeding that up turned me into sort of a snake creature. It looked like I'd spread Elmers glue all over my face when I used Retin A. The peeling phase never ended. I needed to go to work and sit in meetings and there was no way to make my skin look normal enough to feel comfortable.

• Retinoids thin the stratum corneum, which is your protection layer. Because my family has a history of rosacea, I don't want a thinner stratum corneum. That would provide less protection to my veins and blood vessels. I want a strong, healthy, well organized, well moisturized outer skin layer.

Peptides are just as effective at collagen production as retinoids, but without any of the above side effects. Plus, if you know your peptides you can fine tune exactly what you want them to do. To sum up: I don't use retinol because I don't need to. I have better results and more control using peptides.

Does that help? I'm not willing to argue about this with anyone--and not making any assumptions that anyone wants to argue. I know that many others use retinoids very happily and successfully and they should definitely keep doing what they are doing.

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Does that help? Oh, @Porcelain I could not even hope for more in depth answer!

First of all, my brain is not really wired properly for understanding much on ingredients. Well, I do..... very-very little. But I easily grasp things in concept. Your answer was conceptual and perfect for me to get what I needed to know! It covers questions, concerns and my second thoughts about retinol.

Intuitively I knew this already and not really excited to use retinol. I was (and still am) "chicken" about Retinol products.

I must figure out what I need to do. The one I use and like, is Consult Beaute retinol serum, cream, peel and balm cleanser. I don't use them altogether - alternate these products for about a month now.

Consult Beaute retinol is pitched as "buffered retinol". It is very gentle, and I did not have any reaction or peeling of skin so far.

I do not use Retinol serum every day. Still, I am constantly WORRIED that Retinol might turn me into some Night Creature, who's afraid of daylight - a Vampire, like you've said! Oh gosh!  

There is no way I can figure out how to use peptides correctly to replace Retinol.

Do you think, if I won't go overboard with it and keep it limited to only 2-3 times per week, would it still eventually do all those things you've described above?  Or is there a slight chance my skin still keep some of it's "good stratum corneum" ? Lol!

Ladies who are using retinol, please-please-please, don't get into arguing mode!   I only needed  @Porcelain  to answer a specific question personally, and I did not intent a start of any general discussion on Retinol!  Lol! Thanks a million Porcelain! 

[Valstybaby]

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wrote:

Hi @sonechko!  Hmmm how to answer your great questions? I don't want to offend anyone who loves their retinol or retin a and might take my opinions personally..

I use peptides instead of retinol, but that is only possible because I know which peptides to use. Most people don't have the inclination to gather and process all that info.

Retinol and Retin A (I'll refer to them both together as retinoids, and specify retinol or retin a only when I need to) are proven to work, in that they tell the skin to make new skin cells and collagen. But there are major downsides:

• Retinoids turn you into a vampire basically, and not in a good way. You can't let the sun touch your skin while you have a retinoid on it. If sun touches retinoids, the retinoids go bad and your skin gets attacked rather than helped. Even after you wash off the retinoid, your skin is more sensitive to sun and damages quicker and deeper.

• Retinoids are extremely unstable. Cosmetics manufacturers have to go to great lengths to include them in products that will be shelf stable and not go bad. Not just light, but air turns retinoids bad.
  
  And the manufacturers are greatly constrained in what ingredients they can put in a retinoid product because it plays poorly with other ingredients in a formulation. That's why retinoid products with a significant, effective retinoid load in them tend to be very simple and basic formulations.
  
  Even antioxidants in retinoid formulas are only there to help stabilize the retinoid. They don't get a chance to help your skin because their effectiveness is used up within the bottle helping the retinoid.

• Retin A makes your skin sluff off faster. My skin turns over fast enough on its own. Most people don't actually need their skin to shed faster. It's not a particularly common problem.
  
  Speeding that up turned me into sort of a snake creature. It looked like I'd spread Elmers glue all over my face when I used Retin A. The peeling phase never ended. I needed to go to work and sit in meetings and there was no way to make my skin look normal enough to feel comfortable.

• Retinoids thin the stratum corneum, which is your protection layer. Because my family has a history of rosacea, I don't want a thinner stratum corneum. That would provide less protection to my veins and blood vessels. I want a strong, healthy, well organized, well moisturized outer skin layer.

Peptides are just as effective at collagen production as retinoids, but without any of the above side effects. Plus, if you know your peptides you can fine tune exactly what you want them to do. To sum up: I don't use retinol because I don't need to. I have better results and more control using peptides.

Does that help? I'm not willing to argue about this with anyone--and not making any assumptions that anyone wants to argue. I know that many others use retinoids very happily and successfully and they should definitely keep doing what they are doing.

May I ask what you use for peptides? 

---

I am currently using SKINN Pep 40. 

[LTT1]

@SahmIam@Valstybaby@sonechko@Suebdoo@Porcelain

There is much really good info here!

it is thrilling to me, that this is possible...to share such good information!

[Porcelain]

@sonechko  Glad you liked it! I try hard not to presume to tell anyone what to do. So of course if you want to use retinol you definitely should.

My only advice (just advice that you are free to ignore  ) would be to use retinol only when it is dark outside and to take care to avoid the sunlight in the morning before you get a chance to wash it off. And be extra careful to always use your sunscreen.

[sonechko]

Thank you very much @Porcelain! Your answers are super helpful, and I will be more mindful about Retinol, and try to build up additional learning on top of what you've told me. AND I'll be very careful too!

[Mitchell]

Does this apply to all skin care products containing vitamin A? I am currently using Dr. Denese hydroshield serum and Neutrogena healthy skin foundation containing retinol. I don't want to be using anything to irritate my skin further as I have Rosacea.

Thanks

[Porcelain]

@MitchellYep, it does apply to all the Vitamin A derivatives.

My opinion is that it is very irresponsible for Neutrogena to put retinol in a foundation. Most people apply foundation in the morning and wear it all day. Retinol should not be used during the day, so I would recommend only using your foundation in the evening. The SPF in there is not enough to make up for the photosensitivity from the retinol. It's like wearing sunscreen to the tanning booth.

When it comes to rosacea, I'm not a doctor. I would recomend using what your dermatologist recommended when he or she gave you your diagnosis. The prescription medications for rosacea can have a wonderful effect, so please use those first.

I can say that retinol is irritating for everyone, though some can tolerate it without externally noticable side effects. And if I had rosacea I would listen to my doctor -- and concentrate on keeping my acid mantle and lipid barrier strong, avoiding disruptions to the beneficial microflora on the surface of my skin. And I would use a strong (physical only) mineral sunscreen and/or foundation every day.

[acatgirl]

I'm seeing this post late but so happy to see it!  I am excited to see answers on a page other than the Isomers Fan site.  Tired of being challenged over there.  

A few questions, if you please : )

1) Does/should the Glutathiosome Plus High Potency Face Serum sting a tad when first applying? Should the Super Skin Serum? How about if you layer them vs wearing them at different times?  The only serums that I have felt tingle a tad are the Vit C and Retincin, not always though.  If the others sting, it may be because you have used an exfoliator or sensitized your skin in some way.  The Glut Plus and USS are 2 of her very best products.  They are gentle when applying.  If you are not exfoliating are you using any devices on your skin, that could be leaving your skin irritated?  I think you will be very happy with these 2 serums.  Try not to give up on them yet.

2) If NONE of the moisturizers are hydrating enough for your skin, what do you add to it? Or, do you use something else? If the latter, do you layer any ISOMERS moisturizer over it especially if wearing makeup?  I couldn't agree with you more on this point. I think this is where Isomers has room for improvement. I did not find the HPur did the trick when added to their creams.

3) Acetyl Hexapeptide 8 vs the Viper serum; which really works on the lines? I don't use either because I am tired of using overlapping ingredients and thus adding more bottles.

4) Which Matrixyl is everyone raving about?  I use the newest one,  4 Pur.  It is costly and you might want to wait until it comes back in the 2 oz size.  It does add a nice amount of moisure to the skin as well. 

5) How does one incorporate the Copper serum with the Glut and super skin serum? I fnd overlap in these products.  It "may" not be necessary for you to use all 3. If you already own it, you can layer it. If not you may be  able to use the Glut and the USS. The Glut already has some of the trace minerals in it that Copper P has.

6) How about Vit. C; where does that come in to play?  I am a huge fan of the Vitamin C with Ferulic.  I think it's a potent formula for both anti-oxidant and brightening.  Many of the Dr. skin care lines are incorporating Ferulic Acid and Vitamin C in their lines. As long as they are stable they have never been disputed as must haves in a beauty routine. You can use the C as part of your layering process in the AM (I like C as the first step) or at night after your Retiniacin has fully dried.

7) If you use Retiniacin Night Treatment (or any Retinal product) what Isomer products do you use with it at night?  As long as it's dry you can use whatever you prefer.  It's been mentioned that Super Skin is a good one at night if you have too many that you are layering in the AM. The C is a good one to work overnight for Brightening.  And you can pick the moisturizer of your choice to go on top.

From my own experience too many bottles becomes overwhelming. When you can narrow down what you use and see results, you will be the happiest.  I think it's also important to figure out what to believe these products can do for you. I  do not believe that anything can "reposition" your cheeks for example. However that doesn't mean it's not a good product.  I happen to like all the serums you mentioned. You chose the very best.

If you see this post, can you share with us all of the Isomers moisturizers that you have tried that didn't help you with moisture?

TIA!!!

[Chi-town girl]

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@acatgirlwrote:

I'm seeing this post late but so happy to see it!  I am excited to see answers on a page other than the Isomers Fan site.  Tired of being challenged over there.  

A few questions, if you please : )

1) Does/should the Glutathiosome Plus High Potency Face Serum sting a tad when first applying? Should the Super Skin Serum? How about if you layer them vs wearing them at different times?  The only serums that I have felt tingle a tad are the Vit C and Retincin, not always though.  If the others sting, it may be because you have used an exfoliator or sensitized your skin in some way.  The Glut Plus and USS are 2 of her very best products.  They are gentle when applying.  If you are not exfoliating are you using any devices on your skin, that could be leaving your skin irritated?  I think you will be very happy with these 2 serums.  Try not to give up on them yet.

2) If NONE of the moisturizers are hydrating enough for your skin, what do you add to it? Or, do you use something else? If the latter, do you layer any ISOMERS moisturizer over it especially if wearing makeup?  I couldn't agree with you more on this point. I think this is where Isomers has room for improvement. I did not find the HPur did the trick when added to their creams.

3) Acetyl Hexapeptide 8 vs the Viper serum; which really works on the lines? I don't use either because I am tired of using overlapping ingredients and thus adding more bottles.

4) Which Matrixyl is everyone raving about?  I use the newest one,  4 Pur.  It is costly and you might want to wait until it comes back in the 2 oz size.  It does add a nice amount of moisure to the skin as well. 

5) How does one incorporate the Copper serum with the Glut and super skin serum? I fnd overlap in these products.  It "may" not be necessary for you to use all 3. If you already own it, you can layer it. If not you may be  able to use the Glut and the USS. The Glut already has some of the trace minerals in it that Copper P has.

6) How about Vit. C; where does that come in to play?  I am a huge fan of the Vitamin C with Ferulic.  I think it's a potent formula for both anti-oxidant and brightening.  Many of the Dr. skin care lines are incorporating Ferulic Acid and Vitamin C in their lines. As long as they are stable they have never been disputed as must haves in a beauty routine. You can use the C as part of your layering process in the AM (I like C as the first step) or at night after your Retiniacin has fully dried.

7) If you use Retiniacin Night Treatment (or any Retinal product) what Isomer products do you use with it at night?  As long as it's dry you can use whatever you prefer.  It's been mentioned that Super Skin is a good one at night if you have too many that you are layering in the AM. The C is a good one to work overnight for Brightening.  And you can pick the moisturizer of your choice to go on top.

From my own experience too many bottles becomes overwhelming. When you can narrow down what you use and see results, you will be the happiest.  I think it's also important to figure out what to believe these products can do for you. I  do not believe that anything can "reposition" your cheeks for example. However that doesn't mean it's not a good product.  I happen to like all the serums you mentioned. You chose the very best.

If you see this post, can you share with us all of the Isomers moisturizers that you have tried that didn't help you with moisture?

TIA!!!

---

@acatgirl - wow, good info. TY. Interesting to read about applying Vit C at night over the Retiniacin.  

I agree with the comments about Isomers moisturizers not being as emollient, and I don't have dry skin. I use Isomers in combination with Skinn. I love Isomers serums, masks, body products and the SPF. 

[LTT1]

@SahmIam@Chi-town girl@acatgirl@Porcelain@Mitchell

I am finding that letting various Isomers serums dry to form a protective “shield” is the best (healing and preventive) thing I can do for rosacea/breakouts/sensitivity.

This is the ONLY thing that works for my skin.