WEN

[quadmimi]

1. ---

   @HappyDaze wrote:
   

   @quadmimi thank you for this because after your post, I decided to really look at the ingredients in both instead of just relying on what others had posted in the past that it was the exact same as 613 but without the fragrance added. After looking at the ingredient list, this is NOT true! There are many changes between the two, even the order of ingredients which certainly would change the formulation to a certain degree! I wish I would have looked for myself earlier. So now it makes more sense why the formulation seems to be working differently!

   ---

   @HappyDaze

Ok now i am more confused....i emailed Chaz's CS to let them know i was happy with 319 showing menthol way down on the list of ingredients, thus having less, since ingredients were listed higher amounts at top to lowest amount at bottom..(which is what i thought)

The Wen CS responded back.." The order the ingredients are listed in, is actually insignificant. It doesnt represent the amount of the ingredient in the product. We dont have the exact percentages avaiable, but all products have a very similar amount of menthol"

So i googled & it said all beauty products  have ingredients listed in order of most to least unless there is only 1% of that ingredient.  (Unless active ingd)

Since you are good at this & i am "novice",  in regards to 319, it would be the same as the rest of CC's except no added fragrance & those two long " m" ingredients.. 

I am bummed about the menthol though..thx for any thoughts

[HappyDaze]

---

@quadmimi wrote:

1. ---

   @HappyDaze wrote:
   

   @quadmimi thank you for this because after your post, I decided to really look at the ingredients in both instead of just relying on what others had posted in the past that it was the exact same as 613 but without the fragrance added. After looking at the ingredient list, this is NOT true! There are many changes between the two, even the order of ingredients which certainly would change the formulation to a certain degree! I wish I would have looked for myself earlier. So now it makes more sense why the formulation seems to be working differently!

   ---

   @HappyDaze

Ok now i am more confused....i emailed Chaz's CS to let them know i was happy with 319 showing menthol way down on the list of ingredients, thus having less, since ingredients were listed higher amounts at top to lowest amount at bottom..(which is what i thought)

The Wen CS responded back.." The order the ingredients are listed in, is actually insignificant. It doesnt represent the amount of the ingredient in the product. We dont have the exact percentages avaiable, but all products have a very similar amount of menthol"

So i googled & it said all beauty products  have ingredients listed in order of most to least unless there is only 1% of that ingredient.  (Unless active ingd)

Since you are good at this & i am "novice",  in regards to 319, it would be the same as the rest of CC's except no added fragrance & those two long " m" ingredients.. 

I am bummed about the menthol though..thx for any thoughts

---

@quadmimi so did they tell you at what point in the ingredient list the ingredients listed become less than 1%?? Sure they can't tell you the exact % of each ingredient but they should at least know (and be able to tell you) at what point they stopped listing the ingredients in order of most to least (i.e. where the 1% or less ingredients start) since they just randomly are listing the rest of the ingredients at that point??  If they are saying that that point starts somewhere well before the menthol is listed and all of them have roughly the same amount of menthol then that, to me, means at least half their ingredients are minimal and really, insignificant (i.e. less than 1%)??  I really find that explanation questionable. Why would you be able to detect much more menthol in some than others and why do some tingle more than others if they all have the same amount?

[HSB1204]

---

@HappyDaze wrote:

---

@quadmimi wrote:

1. ---

   @HappyDaze wrote:
   

   @quadmimi thank you for this because after your post, I decided to really look at the ingredients in both instead of just relying on what others had posted in the past that it was the exact same as 613 but without the fragrance added. After looking at the ingredient list, this is NOT true! There are many changes between the two, even the order of ingredients which certainly would change the formulation to a certain degree! I wish I would have looked for myself earlier. So now it makes more sense why the formulation seems to be working differently!

   ---

   @HappyDaze

Ok now i am more confused....i emailed Chaz's CS to let them know i was happy with 319 showing menthol way down on the list of ingredients, thus having less, since ingredients were listed higher amounts at top to lowest amount at bottom..(which is what i thought)

The Wen CS responded back.." The order the ingredients are listed in, is actually insignificant. It doesnt represent the amount of the ingredient in the product. We dont have the exact percentages avaiable, but all products have a very similar amount of menthol"

So i googled & it said all beauty products  have ingredients listed in order of most to least unless there is only 1% of that ingredient.  (Unless active ingd)

Since you are good at this & i am "novice",  in regards to 319, it would be the same as the rest of CC's except no added fragrance & those two long " m" ingredients.. 

I am bummed about the menthol though..thx for any thoughts

---

@quadmimi so did they tell you at what point in the ingredient list the ingredients listed become less than 1%?? Sure they can't tell you the exact % of each ingredient but they should at least know (and be able to tell you) at what point they stopped listing the ingredients in order of most to least (i.e. where the 1% or less ingredients start) since they just randomly are listing the rest of the ingredients at that point??  If they are saying that that point starts somewhere well before the menthol is listed and all of them have roughly the same amount of menthol then that, to me, means at least half their ingredients are minimal and really, insignificant (i.e. less than 1%)??  I really find that explanation questionable. Why would you be able to detect much more menthol in some than others and why do some tingle more than others if they all have the same amount?

---

I agree. That was a strange response that doesn't make sense. I definitely don't notice the menthol equally in all of the Wen formulas.

[quadmimi]

---

@HappyDaze wrote:

---

@quadmimi wrote:

1. ---

   @HappyDaze wrote:
   

   @quadmimi thank you for this because after your post, I decided to really look at the ingredients in both instead of just relying on what others had posted in the past that it was the exact same as 613 but without the fragrance added. After looking at the ingredient list, this is NOT true! There are many changes between the two, even the order of ingredients which certainly would change the formulation to a certain degree! I wish I would have looked for myself earlier. So now it makes more sense why the formulation seems to be working differently!

   ---

   @HappyDaze

Ok now i am more confused....i emailed Chaz's CS to let them know i was happy with 319 showing menthol way down on the list of ingredients, thus having less, since ingredients were listed higher amounts at top to lowest amount at bottom..(which is what i thought)

The Wen CS responded back.." The order the ingredients are listed in, is actually insignificant. It doesnt represent the amount of the ingredient in the product. We dont have the exact percentages avaiable, but all products have a very similar amount of menthol"

So i googled & it said all beauty products  have ingredients listed in order of most to least unless there is only 1% of that ingredient.  (Unless active ingd)

Since you are good at this & i am "novice",  in regards to 319, it would be the same as the rest of CC's except no added fragrance & those two long " m" ingredients.. 

I am bummed about the menthol though..thx for any thoughts

---

@quadmimi so did they tell you at what point in the ingredient list the ingredients listed become less than 1%?? Sure they can't tell you the exact % of each ingredient but they should at least know (and be able to tell you) at what point they stopped listing the ingredients in order of most to least (i.e. where the 1% or less ingredients start) since they just randomly are listing the rest of the ingredients at that point??  If they are saying that that point starts somewhere well before the menthol is listed and all of them have roughly the same amount of menthol then that, to me, means at least half their ingredients are minimal and really, insignificant (i.e. less than 1%)??  I really find that explanation questionable. Why would you be able to detect much more menthol in some than others and why do some tingle more than others if they all have the same amount?

---

@HappyDaze  No she didn't say anything else than what I quoted...

I am thinking she must of been a bit confused...or what I googled was wrong, but I really have read before, the first ingredients were the highest amount of ingredient in a product....The Wen CS only gave the info I quoted...".nothing was listed in order of highest or lowest amount and menthol was mostly the same in all CC's"...

I also would think it couldn't be possible for every ingredent to only be the 1%..

So my take is if I thought I was getting less menthol from the 319 I am wrong.  I haven't noticed( for my hair) any difference than the 613, (which is not bad of course) but I have only used it about 4x, so not sure on my scalp yet...

Thanks for breaking it down better for me...

[HappyDaze]

@quadmimi yes perhaps she doesn't know. Here is the FDA labeling regulations. First, their definition of "cosmetics":

"Legal Definition of "Cosmetics"

The FD&C Act defines cosmetics as articles intended to be applied to the human body for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance without affecting the body's structure or functions. Included in this definition are products such as skin creams, lotions, perfumes, lipsticks, fingernail polishes, eye and facial make-up preparations, shampoos, permanent waves, hair colors, toothpastes, deodorants, and any material intended for use as a component of a cosmetic product. Soap products consisting primarily of an alkali salt of fatty acid and making no label claim other than cleansing of the human body are not considered cosmetics under the law."

Now the labeling requirements for ingredients:

"Declaration of Ingredients

.....The ingredients must be declared in descending order of predominance. Color additives (21 CFR 701.3(f)(3)) and ingredients present at one percent or less (21 CFR 701.3(f)(2)) may be declared without regard for predominance. The ingredients must be identified by the names established or adopted by regulation (21 CFR 701.3(c)); those accepted by the FDA as exempt from public disclosure may be stated as "and other ingredients" (21 CFR 701.3(a)).

Cosmetics which are also drugs must first identify the drug ingredient(s) as "active ingredient(s)" before listing the cosmetic ingredients (21 CFR 701.3(d)).

All label statements required by regulation must be in the English language and must be placed on the label or labeling with such prominence and conspicuousness that they are readily noticed and understood by consumers under customary conditions of purchase (21 CFR 701.2)."

So as you can see, all the ingredients are suppose to be listed from highest to lowest until they get to that 1% but what I'd like to know for WEN, WHERE does that begin in their ingredients? If we knew that, we'd be able to see if the menthol amounts really are relatively the same.

[quadmimi]

---

@HappyDaze wrote:

@quadmimi yes perhaps she doesn't know. Here is the FDA labeling regulations. First, their definition of "cosmetics":

"Legal Definition of "Cosmetics"

The FD&C Act defines cosmetics as articles intended to be applied to the human body for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance without affecting the body's structure or functions. Included in this definition are products such as skin creams, lotions, perfumes, lipsticks, fingernail polishes, eye and facial make-up preparations, shampoos, permanent waves, hair colors, toothpastes, deodorants, and any material intended for use as a component of a cosmetic product. Soap products consisting primarily of an alkali salt of fatty acid and making no label claim other than cleansing of the human body are not considered cosmetics under the law."

Now the labeling requirements for ingredients:

"Declaration of Ingredients

.....The ingredients must be declared in descending order of predominance. Color additives (21 CFR 701.3(f)(3)) and ingredients present at one percent or less (21 CFR 701.3(f)(2)) may be declared without regard for predominance. The ingredients must be identified by the names established or adopted by regulation (21 CFR 701.3(c)); those accepted by the FDA as exempt from public disclosure may be stated as "and other ingredients" (21 CFR 701.3(a)).

Cosmetics which are also drugs must first identify the drug ingredient(s) as "active ingredient(s)" before listing the cosmetic ingredients (21 CFR 701.3(d)).

All label statements required by regulation must be in the English language and must be placed on the label or labeling with such prominence and conspicuousness that they are readily noticed and understood by consumers under customary conditions of purchase (21 CFR 701.2)."

So as you can see, all the ingredients are suppose to be listed from highest to lowest until they get to that 1% but what I'd like to know for WEN, WHERE does that begin in their ingredients? If we knew that, we'd be able to see if the menthol amounts really are relatively the same.

---

Yes the Wen CS must of been confused, since menthol is mid-way in most of the other CC's that I have noticed....why put menthol so low on 319, unless she is correct and there is no order.....

[addicted2q]

I just got my 319 TSV in.  I am excited to try it after reading all of your reviews!  I am a die hard BGT gal

Its my fav!

(also like POM and FIG) the 613 was drying to my hair so I have to mix it with the others to use it up.  

Wudnt it be grand if the SHP and 319 were gallons in June? 

[CoG]

---

@quadmimi wrote:

1. ---

   @HappyDaze wrote:
   

   @quadmimi thank you for this because after your post, I decided to really look at the ingredients in both instead of just relying on what others had posted in the past that it was the exact same as 613 but without the fragrance added. After looking at the ingredient list, this is NOT true! There are many changes between the two, even the order of ingredients which certainly would change the formulation to a certain degree! I wish I would have looked for myself earlier. So now it makes more sense why the formulation seems to be working differently!

   ---

   @HappyDaze

Ok now i am more confused....i emailed Chaz's CS to let them know i was happy with 319 showing menthol way down on the list of ingredients, thus having less, since ingredients were listed higher amounts at top to lowest amount at bottom..(which is what i thought)

The Wen CS responded back.." The order the ingredients are listed in, is actually insignificant. It doesnt represent the amount of the ingredient in the product. We dont have the exact percentages avaiable, but all products have a very similar amount of menthol"

So i googled & it said all beauty products  have ingredients listed in order of most to least unless there is only 1% of that ingredient.  (Unless active ingd)

Since you are good at this & i am "novice",  in regards to 319, it would be the same as the rest of CC's except no added fragrance & those two long " m" ingredients.. 

I am bummed about the menthol though..thx for any thoughts

---

Precisely!  My hopes for the perfect facial cleanser have been dashed.  Despite my confidence in the validity Chaz's recommendations, the menthol in 319 and SHL have forced me to abandon this practice.  I won't give up my Clarisonic but using it with WEN cc only intensifies the scalding sensation.  

.

.why on earth would the representative suggest all formulas are similar when protocol, regulations and customer experience all assert this is just not so?  

.

.How do we register our concerns when they are dismissed with such absurdity? Why menthol at all?

[sonechko]

I am also back to my Isomers creams for facial routine, @CoG. Not that I've had any issues using 319, but because I do have good facial creams already, and they come from a skin care formulator, and also just in case. Because 319 is formulated as a Body Cream and there is a difference. I love and use 319/613 as they are intended.

[CoG]

---

@sonechko wrote:

I am also back to my Isomers creams for facial routine, @CoG. Not that I've had any issues using 319, but because I do have good facial creams already, and they come from a skin care formulator, and also just in case. Because 319 is formulated as a Body Cream and there is a difference. I love and use 319/613 as they are intended.

---

Thanks for the reassurance @sonechko!  I might have to abandon the 319 for the face idea altogether.  The mist is delightful but it does leave a glasslike sheen when it dries.  As you noted, these products were not designed for the face, they just serve well in this capacity for those who can tolerate it.. . . . Maybe I'll try Isomers too, nothing else is working.  I just didn't want to open an account with another shopping channel but...