Community Chat

[SuiGeneris]

Another thought for the Bible readers among us. I have always been struck by Romans 7. Paul clearly demonstrates the struggle between good and evil existing within us. It is the epitome of what has been discussed here:

²¹ So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. ²² For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; ²³ but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. ²⁴ What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? ²⁵ Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. [Romans 7: 21-25]

[Pashmina_1]

It helps to keep in mind that evil only entered the picture after Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Before that they were perfect and if they had not sinned their offspring would have also been born into perfection. So yes, it is possible to have good without evil and I do believe that will again be the case one day.

[SuiGeneris]

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

It helps to keep in mind that evil only entered the picture after Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Before that they were perfect and if they had not sinned their offspring would have also been born into perfection. So yes, it is possible to have good without evil and I do believe that will again be the case one day.

Where did the "serpent" in the Garden of Eden come from? He was the one who "tempted" Eve, who in turn tempted Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't believe evil "entered the picture" after Adam and Eve were tempted. I believe it was there all along in the form of the serpent. They fell from grace after eating of the fruit of the tree because they were disobedient to God and because they then had knowledge of the world that, until that time, had been known only to God. They were not supposed to know that "good and evil" existed. So, even that statement proves that "evil" was already in the world, but Adam and Eve had no comprehension of it before they ate of the fruit.

[Mothertrucker]

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

On 3/29/2015 SnowPink said:

On 3/28/2015 Mothertrucker said:

So we have God to thank for evil...

Because he wanted us to be "obedient", slaves are obedient......

What does that say about a loving God...?

When a parent encourages their child to be obedient, they are showing love. Or do you think parents want their children to be obedient because they want them to be slaves?

You make a great point. Parents want their children to be obedient because they love them and more times than not, know what's best for them. Same with God. He created us so He knows our make up better than anyone, so why shouldn't he give us laws to live by? After all they are for our own benefit because he loves us.

but we are not children...and adults should not be treated as children by anyone who respects them...

[rarejan]

All that is contingent of course on whether one believes the premise of the Bible. If not, well, we'd have to rethink this.

[SnowPink]

On 3/29/2015 Mothertrucker said:

but we are not children...and adults should not be treated as children by anyone who respects them...

In the eyes of God, we are His children. I love this song --

Lately I've been winning battles left and right
But even winners can get wounded in the fight
People say that I'm amazing
Strong beyond my years
But they don't see inside of me
I'm hiding all the tears

They don't know that I go running home when I fall down
They don't know who picks me up when no one is around
I drop my sword and cry for just a while
'Cause deep inside this armor
The warrior is a child

Unafraid because His armor is the best
But even soldiers need a quiet place to rest
People say that I'm amazing
Never face retreat
But they don't see the enemies
That lay me at His feet

They don't know that I go running home when I fall down
They don't know who picks me up when no one is around
I drop my sword and and cry for just a while
'Cause deep inside this armor
the warrior is a child

They don't know that I go running home when I fall down
They don't know who picks me up when no one is around
I drop my sword and look up for a smile
'Cause deep inside this armor
Deep inside this armor
Deep inside this armor
The Warrior is a Child

[SuiGeneris]

On 3/29/2015 rarejan said:

All that is contingent of course on whether one believes the premise of the Bible. If not, well, we'd have to rethink this.

We then go back to my original post about the dual nature of this world.

There are not just physical attributes of this duality I mentioned such as dry and wet, light and dark, hot and cold; there are also metaphysical (beyond physics) concepts such as life and death, consciousness and unconsciousness, adult and child [I would also include God/human.] and good and evil.

We're not able to recognize, explain or understand one opposite concept without the being/presence of the other.

I would be interested to hear somebody explain what "good" is without "evil" somehow entering into the explanation.

ETA: How do you know that a mother's love is "good" unless you have experienced the "evil" of a taunt of one of your classmates? How do you know a beautiful sunny day is "good" without experiencing a dark, gloomy, rainy day? How do you know that your life is precious without the knowledge that death is inevitably coming?

[Pashmina_1]

On 3/29/2015 SuiGeneris said:

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

It helps to keep in mind that evil only entered the picture after Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Before that they were perfect and if they had not sinned their offspring would have also been born into perfection. So yes, it is possible to have good without evil and I do believe that will again be the case one day.

Where did the "serpent" in the Garden of Eden come from? He was the one who "tempted" Eve, who in turn tempted Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't believe evil "entered the picture" after Adam and Eve were tempted. I believe it was there all along in the form of the serpent. They fell from grace after eating of the fruit of the tree because they were disobedient to God and because they then had knowledge of the world that, until that time, had been known only to God. They were not supposed to know that "good and evil" existed. So, even that statement proves that "evil" was already in the world, but Adam and Eve had no comprehension of it before they ate of the fruit.

The serpent was created by God but used by Satan to deceive Eve. Satan who was preciously an angel of God was given free will just like humans. He made himself into the devil when he decided to sin against God. And no, evil did not exist before that time in heaven or upon the earth. Once the angel sinned he knew what evil was because he lived it and the same with Adam and Eve.

[SuiGeneris]

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

On 3/29/2015 SuiGeneris said:

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

It helps to keep in mind that evil only entered the picture after Adam and Eve's fall from grace. Before that they were perfect and if they had not sinned their offspring would have also been born into perfection. So yes, it is possible to have good without evil and I do believe that will again be the case one day.

Where did the "serpent" in the Garden of Eden come from? He was the one who "tempted" Eve, who in turn tempted Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't believe evil "entered the picture" after Adam and Eve were tempted. I believe it was there all along in the form of the serpent. They fell from grace after eating of the fruit of the tree because they were disobedient to God and because they then had knowledge of the world that, until that time, had been known only to God. They were not supposed to know that "good and evil" existed. So, even that statement proves that "evil" was already in the world, but Adam and Eve had no comprehension of it before they ate of the fruit.

The serpent was created by God but used by Satan to deceive Eve. Satan who was preciously an angel of God was given free will just like humans. He made himself into the devil when he decided to sin against God. And no, evil did not exist before that time in heaven or upon the earth. Once the angel sinned he knew what evil was because he lived it and the same with Adam and Eve.

According to the Bible, sin starts with thought [Matthew 15:19 - For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.]

How did Lucifer develop evil thoughts [pride and arrogance]? Where did they come from? If all he had ever known was living in the presence of God's love in heaven, how could evil thoughts have developed? I believe they were there all along, with God's knowledge. You can't believe in God's omniscience without believing that he "knew" that this would happen. Otherwise, he is not omniscient [all-knowing], nor omnipresent or omnipotent. If one believes in God one must believe he possesses these three traits; otherwise he is not God. [I could also add transcendence, but for the purposes of this discussion, I will leave that for another day.]

[Pashmina_1]

Simple answer...from his own free will of thought. His thoughts gave birth to sin just as Jesus expressed. Does God have the power to know all and see all? Of course He does. Does He always exercise that power in all things? It is obvious He does not when it come to his creations of angels and humans. That would not be fair to us or His angels. He gives us the opportunity to prove our faithfulness to Him.