Community Chat

[beckyb1012]

My Great Grandfather was  full blooded Cherokee Indian and my Great Grandmother came from an old Victorian family in the city I still reside in.   My Great Grandfather did well in the oil fields of that time and was murdered on the downtown square here.  His fingers were actually hacked off to remove the diamond rings he was wearing.  It was a hard time for my family decades ago but to allow it to make me bitter about people who thought an "Indian" should not possess certain things just would make me miserable. Whoever committed the crime got away with here on earth but after that..........

[bathina]

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@beckyb1012 wrote:

My Great Grandfather was  full blooded Cherokee Indian and my Great Grandmother came from an old Victorian family in the city I still reside in.   My Great Grandfather did well in the oil fields of that time and was murdered on the downtown square here.  His fingers were actually hacked off to remove the diamond rings he was wearing.  It was a hard time for my family decades ago but to allow it to make me bitter about people who thought an "Indian" should not possess certain things just would make me miserable. Whoever committed the crime got away with here on earth but after that..........

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This is a very sad story and I thank you for sharing it. Of course you shouldn't live a life filled with bitterness because of it. However, regarding Columbus, who's name and image we celebrate as a national holiday, how would you feel if your great grandfather's murderers were lionized and made out to be heroes? That is the way many native americans (and many non-natives) feel about celebrating Columbus.

[Josefina]

Sorry to correct you, but in Spanish the name is Cristóbal Colón. And in italian it is Cristoforo Colombo.

[esmerelda]

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@bathina wrote:

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@esmerelda wrote:

@Cakers3 Speaking of Vikings, how did they treat the people they found here?

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Why? Do we celebrate Viking Day in this country?

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@bathinaSo that's the criteria that determines if someone is good or bad...whether there is a day on which we celebrate them?  Are you saying Columbus' treatment of the people would be okay if we didn't celebrate Columbus Day?

[esmerelda]

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@bathina wrote:

@beckyb1012 the problem is that we were not given the true picture of Columbus (who landed in the Bahamas, not the US). We were not given the true picture of the Pilgrims and their interactions with the native americans. I realiz@e young children don't need to know details about the murder and rape and enslavement, but the least we can do is not elevate those who perpetrated evil to icons of greatness.

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@bathinaWhere can I find this "true picture" of Columbus and the pilgrims?  Where did you get it?  Is there a book or website you'd recommend?

[esmerelda]

@cherryYour last paragraph on your long post about CC...the two populations you mentioned...can they really be compared?

Who is the recognized, respected leader of the native people here?

[bathina]

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@esmerelda wrote:

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@bathina wrote:

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@esmerelda wrote:

@Cakers3 Speaking of Vikings, how did they treat the people they found here?

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Why? Do we celebrate Viking Day in this country?

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@bathinaSo that's the criteria that determines if someone is good or bad...whether there is a day on which we celebrate them?  Are you saying Columbus' treatment of the people would be okay if we didn't celebrate Columbus Day?

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I'm saying we don't celebrate murderers, slavers and rapists who have wiped out 50% of an indigenous population as heroes. What happened, happened. We can't change it. It wasn't right, but brutality was the m.o. during that time. We can avoid lionizing that brutality by declaring holidays or erecting statues in their names. When we know better, we do better.

[cherry]

No, they can't be compared ,but we still have a responsibility to provide for these people. Just because some have made a good life ,doesn't mean everyone can....Forbes has a good  article about how our Gov has failed them, and gives 5 concrete things that can  help elevate them out of poverty

If we are discussing  Native Americans,  I would like to see something done ,that would actually help them, not just  a grandiose renaming of a holiday ,no one even pays any attention to, to begin with @esmerelda

[bathina]

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@esmerelda wrote:

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@bathina wrote:

@beckyb1012 the problem is that we were not given the true picture of Columbus (who landed in the Bahamas, not the US). We were not given the true picture of the Pilgrims and their interactions with the native americans. I realiz@e young children don't need to know details about the murder and rape and enslavement, but the least we can do is not elevate those who perpetrated evil to icons of greatness.

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@bathinaWhere can I find this "true picture" of Columbus and the pilgrims?  Where did you get it?  Is there a book or website you'd recommend?

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There is much available on Amazon. I would suggest the book Mayflower, Nathaniel Philbrick, as a starting point.

[esmerelda]

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@bathina wrote:

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@esmerelda wrote:

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@bathina wrote:

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@esmerelda wrote:

@Cakers3 Speaking of Vikings, how did they treat the people they found here?

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Why? Do we celebrate Viking Day in this country?

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@bathinaSo that's the criteria that determines if someone is good or bad...whether there is a day on which we celebrate them?  Are you saying Columbus' treatment of the people would be okay if we didn't celebrate Columbus Day?

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I'm saying we don't celebrate murderers, slavers and rapists who have wiped out 50% of an indigenous population as heroes. What happened, happened. We can't change it. It wasn't right, but brutality was the m.o. during that time. We can avoid lionizing that brutality by declaring holidays or erecting statues in their names. When we know better, we do better.

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@bathinaSome say there are days set aside and statues erected to slavers and murderers.  Does the "when we know better, we do better" apply to them?  Do we apply the "m.o. during that time" to them?  Or do we condemn them for being men of their time and try to erase all evidence of them?