Among Friends

[Luvsmyfam]

@Love my grandkids Hope you feel better today and I'm sorry if I upset you

[branny]

I agree. I am a forgiving person but I'm sorry, there are just some things going on in this world that I just cannot. I cannot forgive evil. Period.

[MacDuFF]

I hope this post doesn't go too overboard and/or too beyond the scope of @timeless OP (even though I recognize that it does somewhat😬), but I think there are common themes, so...

The question of forgiveness is fascinating for me and one that I think about often.  You might find this book interesting.  The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness, by Simon Wiesenthal.

An internet search brought up this summary...

While imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp, Simon Wiesenthal was brought to the bedside of a dying Nazi soldier seeking repentance from a Jew. At his bedside, Simon listened in disgust as the soldier confessed to his atrocious crimes. In the end, Simon was faced with the choice between compassion and justice, silence and truth. He has lived with his decision for years, but ever since, he has been haunted by the questions: Did he do the right thing? What would you have done in his place? Throughout The Sunflower, Simon asks fifty-three distinguished men and women these same questions. Theologians, political leaders, writers, jurists, psychiatrists, Holocaust survivors, and genocide survivors, each with their own story to tell, share their responses to these questions. Each one teaches Simon, and us, that forgiveness isn’t as clear as we once thought.

I read this book about ten years ago...no longer have it in my library.  But, I just spent the better part of an hour looking through my archives 🤓 and found a copy of one of the responses I kept because, IIRC, it was probably as close to what I feel/believe to be how I would answer.  Harry James Cargas was a scholar/author best known for his writing/research on the Holocaust.  I redacted a few words/sentences for brevity or because I thought they might not pass muster with the mods (religious), but that I thought didn't change his response.

"I am afraid not to forgive because I fear not to be forgiven.  At the time of Judgment, I pray for mercy rather than justice.  Some theologians have it that...mercy and justice must exist side by side, but who among us is so confident as to say, 'I can withstand the scrutiny of justice?'

As we consider Simon Wiesenthal's dilemma let us carry it out to a kind of logical end--almost a reductio ad absurdum problem:  Should Adolph Hitler be forgiven?...

Forgiveness, like any apparently virtuous act, can be misunderstood, including by the forgiver.  My act of charity might well turn out to be an act of arrogance if examined very closely.  Perhaps when I forgive I raise myself above the other.  I make that person beholden to me.  It is appropriate to ask myself, 'Who am I to forgive?'

Yet forgiveness is a virtue, that cannot be denied.  And it is necessary to spiritual wholeness.  But is it required of us in all cases?  In Christian Scripture there is a reference to an unforgiveable sin....

For me the question is not can we forgive [the dying Nazi] or should we forgive [him], but dare we do so?  If there are crimes in my lifetime which are unforgiveable, certainly those of Hitler and his henchman have committed them.  I tremble with all of my being when I hold them fully responsible for their actions--but I do.  Forgiveness is not something we may depend on others for....

If G-d chooses to forgive [the dying Nazi], that's G-d's affair.  Simon Wiesenthal could not, I cannot.  For me, [the dying Nazi] dies unforgiven.  G-d have mercy on my soul."

A few other quotes I thought were interesting from the book offered as food for thought...

Wiesenthal stated, "In his confession there was true repentance."  Other commentators thought the dying man was angling for cheap grace and that this remorse only existed because he faced death.  Literary critic Tzvetan Todorov thought that the fact the man expressed remorse made him exceptional, and therefore deserving of respect.

Political theorist Herbert Marcuse: "the easy forgiving of such crimes perpetuates the very evil it wants to alleviate."  And Wiesenthal said that people who wanted "only peace and quiet" were "the mounting blocks by which the criminals climbed to power and kept it."

The Dalai Lama said that one must forgive but not necessarily forget. Do you think it is possible to forgive and not forget? How would you differentiate forgiveness and reconciliation?

Anyway...thaank you for posting this interesting thread.  Enjoyed reading all the comments, too.

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@branny 

[Lucky Charm]

Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.

Or so they say....

Are violets fragrant?

[Isobel Archer]

One of the things that struck me back when I read The Sunflower is the idea that we can forgive someone - on behalf of others.  I don't believe we can - I believe only God can do that.

On another note, I found it much easier to forgive my mother and my ex (neither of whom ever asked for forgiveness or for that matter ever believed they did anything wrong) AFTER they were no longer in my life and continuing their abuse.

It's fine to mouth platitudes that only hurting people hurt people and we should rise above our own hurt and try to understand, but when you are subjected to their abuse over and over, it's just not so easy. 

I remember when my mother was in Assisted Living and I was visiting her with my DH (who always felt I exaggerated her feelings toward me) and was off getting her something, she finally unloaded on him about how I had ruined her life by chasing away my father with my constant crying as a baby, how she had hated me for that all my life, how she wished I would just die, etc. etc.  etc. He was astounded as she had always been nice when he was around.

When he told me, I said yes, this was the constant rrefrain all my life growing up - I was worthless, didn't deserve to live etc. etc.  I think he finally understood why I couldn't just "overlook" it all and was even surprised I was taking care of her until she died.

When she was finally gone, it was much easier to "understand" how screwed she was.  However, it also took counseling to understand that I was not at fault for her failed marrriage or her general unhappiness.  And that it was her drumming into me that I was deserving of significant punishment  that led me to marry someone who accommodated that need by beating me up regularly and actually triyng to kill me.

It took leaving him (and later hearing that he died) before I could realize that he had been abused himself as a child and could begin to forgive him as well.

No, forgiveness isn't just some formula that everyone should apply and I don't believe it "earns" us forgiveness either if we are not truly sorry for the hurt we cause. 

And finally, being sorry means at the very least, that you stop doing what caused the hurt in the first place.

[10sluvr]

In this case, I think forgiveness is given to help the dying person's conscience and giving them a peace of mind, for passing. A verbal forgiveness is easier than true forgiveness, that may take years. Saying it out loud is a start, but also the degree of injustice/trauma, plays into it.