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Respected Contributor
Posts: 4,338
Registered: ‎07-02-2015

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.

@sidsmom

 

You wrote:

 

<<Other than B12, which EVERYONE, even meat eaters, should be taking>>

 

Where in the world (or in which  book) did this startling bit of information come from, and why doesn't "everyone" know that a Vitamin B12 supplement   is essential to human health?  

 

I doubt  most people need a supplemental dose of what is essentially a  "pep and energy" booster.   If they do,  it seems to me that a medical  or nutrition professional should prescribe it, based on whether their diets are not already supplying it. 

 

 This is just my opinion, preached  as gospel to no one in in particular and certainly not to "everyone", who might be getting tired of nutrition sermons anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honored Contributor
Posts: 18,415
Registered: ‎11-25-2011

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.


@novamc wrote:

@sidsmom

 

@You wrote:

 

<<Other than B12, which EVERYONE, even meat eaters, should be taking>>

 

Where in the world (or in which  book) did this startling bit of information come from, and why doesn't "everyone" know that a Vitamin B12 supplement   is essential to human health?  

 

I doubt  most people need a supplemental dose of what is essentially a  "pep and energy" booster.   If they do,  it seems to me that a medical  or nutrition professional should prescribe it, based on whether their diets are not already supplying it. 

 


@novamc

Unfortunately there's no known evidence that B12 is a 'pep and energy' booster.  Advertisement and too many 'Housewives' shows (Kim Zolicak) will perpetuate that myth (!).

 

It's very known within the plant-based world that B12 needs to be supplemented.  And I think most doctors have a RDA for B12 for the general population,   But new surprise is many of those eating animal-dairy-eggs are at a high risk of being B12 deficient.  It's not a free pass.

 

The key is absorption.

 

B12 is utilized within the gut flora...so those with compromised systems are at risk.  Some examples of compromised systems include the elderly, those who smoke, drink, take heartburn medication, have had bariatric surgery, have celiac disease...even those who take Metformin...any condition which compromises the internal gut flora has the opportunity for lower B12 absorption.

 

An annual blood exam from your doctor will provide if one is deficient or not, but just because someone eats chicken wings with cheese every night with a 'purple pill' chaser before they take their diabetic Meds is not given a free pass.  Don't be surprised if B12 shows up deficient. Just something to monitor.

 

And with the number of heartburn OTC medication advertisements, the epidemic of T2 diabetes & Bud Lite commercials I see on TV, I would predict it's a vitamin not closely monitored by non-plant-eaters. False sense of security. Again, just something to monitor.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

Free content with references.

Trusted Contributor
Posts: 1,470
Registered: ‎01-01-2015

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.

[ Edited ]

@novamc wrote:

@sidsmom

 

@You wrote:

 

<<Other than B12, which EVERYONE, even meat eaters, should be taking>>

 

Where in the world (or in which  book) did this startling bit of information come from, and why doesn't "everyone" know that a Vitamin B12 supplement   is essential to human health?  

 

I doubt  most people need a supplemental dose of what is essentially a  "pep and energy" booster.   If they do,  it seems to me that a medical  or nutrition professional should prescribe it, based on whether their diets are not already supplying it. 

 

 This is just my opinion, preached  as gospel to no one in in particular and certainly not to "everyone", who might be getting tired of nutrition sermons anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


No, you're right @novamc, not everyone needs a B12 supplement in their diet. It's not a given. 

 

It's really disheartening to continually see the misinformation that is posted here. Smiley Sad

 

Someone might take what's posted here seriously, rather than checking with their healtcare provider. 

Honored Contributor
Posts: 18,415
Registered: ‎11-25-2011

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.

[ Edited ]

@Toppers wrote:
"...,checking with their healtcare provider."

That's correct.   They need to monitor this carefully when they do their annual blood work.  B12 is a vitamin everyone needs in their diet..there's a RDA for the general public.

 

Since this is a diabetes thread & Metformin seems to be the drug of choice, the RDA amount of B12 they consume via an animal-based diet might not be absorbed & deficiencies might occur.   Something to monitor. 

Trusted Contributor
Posts: 1,470
Registered: ‎01-01-2015

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.


@sidsmom wrote:

@Toppers wrote:
"...,checking with their healtcare provider."

That's correct.   They need to monitor this carefully when they do their annual blood work.  B12 is a vitamin everyone needs in their diet..there's a RDA for the general public.

 

Since this is a diabetes thread & Metformin seems to be the drug of choice, the RDA amount of B12 they consume via an animal-based diet might not be absorbed & deficiencies might occur.   Something to monitor. 


I see that you took my post out of context, so that it could be turned around for your benefit. That's really a shame, and it's really too bad that you would do that. 

 

You are presuming again, what a doctor is going to do for a patient. You don't know this regarding supplements, including what a doctor will do for a diabetic patient. 

 

Again, I am sorry to see misinformation posted in this forum.

Respected Contributor
Posts: 4,338
Registered: ‎07-02-2015

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.

[ Edited ]

A while back, I asked the resident starchivore  whether she took supplements to compensate for missing nutrients.  Sure enough, so far, brewer's yeast and B12 are on the list.  No telling how many others might be, as well.  This is what many people who share that frame of mind about certain food groups do........take supplements.

 

Eating a  well-rounded diet can save a whole lot of money at the vitamin counter............but the "experts" who write the books and make the pills and capsules  are very convincing.....apparently SO convincing that they turn at least some of their followers into  evangelists who go forth into  the world "to educate" others.  ("Educate" perhaps should be changed to "convert".)  

 

Meanwhile, it's important to keep in mind that the supplement makers are totally unregulated by any authority and quite literally might be getting away with peddling junk, for all we know.  Their very existence depends on convincing the public that the only way to be healthy is to take what they're selling.

 

I personally take a multivitamin and a vitamin D pill almost every day, simply because I tend not to eat much a lot of the time and try to minimize sun exposure due to fair skin ....... but  NOT because I've cut entire food groups out of my diet. 

 

It can't possibly be right  to tell "everyone" that they need to purchase supplements which many cannot afford,  which might not be needed, and which might even harm more than just their pocketbooks.

 

Also, keep in mind that, to date, absolutely NO scientist or research facility  has accomplished the impossible------which means, none have conducted  controlled studies monitoring enough people for enough time in terms of what they eat every day to determine the long-terms effects on health for the vast general population.  It can't be done without locking thousands or millions of volunteers in a room for much of their lives, while controlling everything they eat and projecting the results onto "everyone" else.

 

Apparently, this does not matter to the true believers.

 

 

Honored Contributor
Posts: 18,415
Registered: ‎11-25-2011

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.

[ Edited ]

@novamc wrote:

A while back, I asked the resident starchivore  whether she took supplements to compensate for missing nutrients.  Sure enough, so far, brewer's yeast and B12 are on the list.  No telling how many others might be, as well.  This is what many people who share that frame of mind about certain food groups do........take supplements. 

 


Nutritional Yeast is considered a food product.  We affectionately call it 'Nooch' (!) since it adds a cheesy flavor without the harmful properties of dairy.   I don't take any multivitamin pills or vitamin D...just B12.    

 

BTW:  Any multivitamin, including vitamin D and B12, are not regulated by the FDA.  I only take one, so my 'harm to my pocketbook' is one less than a multivitamin & D.  I make up the pocketbook harm by spending so little on food, beans-greens/leafies-veg/fruit-starch, so the cost is minimal.

 

By eating a plant based diet, my gut flora is at its peak, so absorption is 100%.    Those eating a less-than-desirable diet coupled with medications (referencing this diabetes thread, Metformin), only provides a weak absorption environment where deficiencies may occur.  The days of eating some meat & drinking milk every day might not be enough for those B12 vitamins to be utilized...and that's where deficiencies arise in the long term.

 

With SO many people on medications, anti-acids, antibiotics, 'gut flora' talk is gaining speed. I see it in the yogurt commercials & generic news websites.  It will continue to be a concern for as long as people continue to stay sick.  

Trusted Contributor
Posts: 1,251
Registered: ‎11-24-2014

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.


@sidsmom wrote:

@novamc wrote:

A while back, I asked the resident starchivore  whether she took supplements to compensate for missing nutrients.  Sure enough, so far, brewer's yeast and B12 are on the list.  No telling how many others might be, as well.  This is what many people who share that frame of mind about certain food groups do........take supplements. 

 


Nutritional Yeast is considered a food product.  We affectionately call it 'Nooch' (!) since it adds a cheesy flavor without the harmful properties of dairy.   I don't take any multivitamin pills or vitamin D...just B12.    

 

BTW:  Any multivitamin, including vitamin D and B12, are not regulated by the FDA.  I only take one, so my 'harm to my pocketbook' is one less than a multivitamin & D.  I make up the pocketbook harm by spending so little on food, beans-greens/leafies-veg/fruit-starch, so the cost is minimal.

 

By eating a plant based diet, my gut flora is at its peak, so absorption is 100%.    Those eating a less-than-desirable diet coupled with medications (referencing this diabetes thread, Metformin), only provides a weak absorption environment where deficiencies may occur.  The days of eating some meat & drinking milk every day might not be enough for those B12 vitamins to be utilized...and that's where deficiencies arise in the long term.

 

With SO many people on medications, anti-acids, antibiotics, 'gut flora' talk is gaining speed. 

 

@sidsmom Did you know that Euell Gibbons was one of the pioneers of a plant based diet? He died at the ripe old age of 64. 

 

As for B12, my mother used to get those shots when she was young, I remember doctors giving them as sort of a panacea back then for women who came in fatigued. But of course back then being tired came from taking care of 4-5 kids, cleaning house, washing clothese in wringer washers, no modern conveniences like we have today. Of course they were tired. So the easy fix was a shot of B12. 

 

Doctors today don't recommend B12 anymore. My father has idiopathic anemia and I go with him to his appointments. He asked his doctor for B12 shots for his fatigue. The doctor gave them to him because dad is 89 and he had no other remedies for him.After a series of 6, he recheked his bloodwork and there was no change. Still had anemia and pancytopenia.

 

Here is what some literature says:

 

Taking some B-12 is advisable for people over the age of 50 (when you're less able to extract B-12 from food), as well as for those taking medications that interfere with B-12 absorption, strict vegetarians, alcohol and drug abusers, people recovering from surgery or burns, and those with bowel or pancreatic cancer.  

Although vitamin B-12 is generally considered to be safe, and no "Upper Tolerable Intake Level" has been established, there are some reports of doses of 20 mcg per day or higher causing outbreaks of acne and rosacea. There is also a study which showed that a high-dose B complex supplement (with 1,000 mcg of B-12) hurt, rather than helped, people with diabetes and advanced kidney disease.  

In general, it's best to avoid excessive doses of any vitamin if it is not needed.

 

A well rounded diet eliminates the need for vitamins. Plant eaters don't eat a well rounded diet. Not enough protein, not enough healthy fat. 

 

BTW, Dr Weil is a proponent of B12 and plant based diet, but interestingly when I see him, he looks overweight. Why? 

 

As for the Esselstyns, I worked at CCF and Caldwell was a good friend to one of the doctors I worked with so I know his work very well. Rip's Engine Diet, especially the Big Bowl cereal tastes like a bowl of dead twigs and weeds. If I'm going to eat to stay alive I might as well eat something that I actually enjoy. His diet reminds me of the movie Soylent Green when all they ate was crackers. 

I'm done with P.C. Just say what you mean and mean what you say. It's easier.
Honored Contributor
Posts: 18,415
Registered: ‎11-25-2011

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.

At this writing, there's a current thread about Whole Foods in Community Chat.  

 

I totally forgot how Whole Foods has an Immersion Program for their at-risk associates....and yes, it's with no other than Dr. John McDougall (links are in the Whole Foods thread in Community Chat).

 

Whole Foods is a huge supporter of The Engine 2 Diet, McDougall Diet & with Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn to promote the plant-based message. 

 

If Whole Foods recognizes the importance of a plant-based diet to reduce their healthcare costs & improve the health of their associates, it's just another reason why eating this way is the answer.  Even Kaiser-Permanente endorses a plant-based diet.  The WOE is the answer to reduction/elimination to so many diseases...even curing diabetes, as relating to this thread. 

 

http://share.kaiserpermanente.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/The-Plant-Based-Diet-booklet.pdf

Trusted Contributor
Posts: 1,470
Registered: ‎01-01-2015

Re: Some interesting diabetes facts I learned today.


@60sgirl wrote:

@sidsmom wrote:

@novamc wrote:

A while back, I asked the resident starchivore  whether she took supplements to compensate for missing nutrients.  Sure enough, so far, brewer's yeast and B12 are on the list.  No telling how many others might be, as well.  This is what many people who share that frame of mind about certain food groups do........take supplements. 

 


Nutritional Yeast is considered a food product.  We affectionately call it 'Nooch' (!) since it adds a cheesy flavor without the harmful properties of dairy.   I don't take any multivitamin pills or vitamin D...just B12.    

 

BTW:  Any multivitamin, including vitamin D and B12, are not regulated by the FDA.  I only take one, so my 'harm to my pocketbook' is one less than a multivitamin & D.  I make up the pocketbook harm by spending so little on food, beans-greens/leafies-veg/fruit-starch, so the cost is minimal.

 

By eating a plant based diet, my gut flora is at its peak, so absorption is 100%.    Those eating a less-than-desirable diet coupled with medications (referencing this diabetes thread, Metformin), only provides a weak absorption environment where deficiencies may occur.  The days of eating some meat & drinking milk every day might not be enough for those B12 vitamins to be utilized...and that's where deficiencies arise in the long term.

 

With SO many people on medications, anti-acids, antibiotics, 'gut flora' talk is gaining speed. 

 

@sidsmom Did you know that Euell Gibbons was one of the pioneers of a plant based diet? He died at the ripe old age of 64. 

 

As for B12, my mother used to get those shots when she was young, I remember doctors giving them as sort of a panacea back then for women who came in fatigued. But of course back then being tired came from taking care of 4-5 kids, cleaning house, washing clothese in wringer washers, no modern conveniences like we have today. Of course they were tired. So the easy fix was a shot of B12. 

 

Doctors today don't recommend B12 anymore. My father has idiopathic anemia and I go with him to his appointments. He asked his doctor for B12 shots for his fatigue. The doctor gave them to him because dad is 89 and he had no other remedies for him.After a series of 6, he recheked his bloodwork and there was no change. Still had anemia and pancytopenia.

 

Here is what some literature says:

 

Taking some B-12 is advisable for people over the age of 50 (when you're less able to extract B-12 from food), as well as for those taking medications that interfere with B-12 absorption, strict vegetarians, alcohol and drug abusers, people recovering from surgery or burns, and those with bowel or pancreatic cancer.  

Although vitamin B-12 is generally considered to be safe, and no "Upper Tolerable Intake Level" has been established, there are some reports of doses of 20 mcg per day or higher causing outbreaks of acne and rosacea. There is also a study which showed that a high-dose B complex supplement (with 1,000 mcg of B-12) hurt, rather than helped, people with diabetes and advanced kidney disease.  

In general, it's best to avoid excessive doses of any vitamin if it is not needed.

 

A well rounded diet eliminates the need for vitamins. Plant eaters don't eat a well rounded diet. Not enough protein, not enough healthy fat. 

 

BTW, Dr Weil is a proponent of B12 and plant based diet, but interestingly when I see him, he looks overweight. Why? 

 

As for the Esselstyns, I worked at CCF and Caldwell was a good friend to one of the doctors I worked with so I know his work very well. Rip's Engine Diet, especially the Big Bowl cereal tastes like a bowl of dead twigs and weeds. If I'm going to eat to stay alive I might as well eat something that I actually enjoy. His diet reminds me of the movie Soylent Green when all they ate was crackers. 


I highlighted what I think is a really important part of your post.

 

I think that if someone is going to follow a plant-based diet, that they should talk to a dietician or nutritionist about getting the proper nutrition into their diet, so that nothing is found to be lacking in it.

 

I have known some vegetarians who were not eating properly.

 

They had the best intentions, as they did not want to eat any animal products. They just wanted to eat vegetables, but they didn't know how to get the proper amount of protein and fats into their diets, either, through their vegetarian diets.