TV and Movies

[goldensrbest]

I must say,again i just do not understand mary picking the race car driver, i don't think this writing of him,and her  getting married ,seems correct.

[Moonchilde]

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@goldensrbest wrote:

I must say,again i just do not understand mary picking the race car driver, i don't think this writing of him,and her  getting married ,seems correct.

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I think the point was, you either love someone or you don t. Mary had suitors who were more appropriate financially and socially, but she turned them down because she didn't love them. She loves this one - and in this most important thing, at least, love trumps for Mary.

Having said that, Mary would not have even met or be interested in "just" a race driver or mechanic.

http://downtonabbey.wikia.com/wiki/Henry_Talbot

[Lilysmom]

Well, I have really enjoyed this series.  Gorgeous costumes, interesting relationships.  The latest episode was packed with events as we approach the end.  It is very interesting to see it move to conclusion.

 I must say, as touching as Edith's commentary was about the family relationship/sister relationship with Mary, I just couldn't see myself turning the other cheek in that circumstance.  I might have taken the opportunity to completely cut ties with Mary for the callous, malicious deed she did.  Mary's behavior was inexcusable IMO.

Although I think it's time, I will miss Downton Abbey!  LM

[KathyPet]

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@2cockers1cat wrote:

What an interesting discussion this is.  I've enjoyed reading all your thoughts.

Because this series had so many plot lines, it's easy to forget some of the early feud catalysts between Edith and Mary.  Season 1, episode 3, put Mary in bed with Kemal Pamuk, the Turkish aristocrat, who came to a houseparty week-end.  There must have been pre-marital sex of some sort involved in that encounter.

Mr Pamuk dies while with Mary, which results in her seeking out Anna and Cora to move the dead man from her room back to his bed in the guest quarters.  Daisy is already about her early morning duties, getting the fires lit, and sees the women struggling with the body.

Over time, Edith accumulates clues from overheard snatches of conversation and realizes the circumstances of Mr Pamuk's death.  She sends a letter to the Turkish embassy, hoping to ruin Mary, as the truth leaks out.  The fact that the family will be harmed by this information seems to have escaped her.

This is the first time Mary's willful indiscretions lead to blackmail attempts.  The first Mrs Bates is introduced as an extortionist, hoping to capitalize from the gossip she's heard. 

Richard Carlisle, the publisher, is also aware of the story.  During his engagemant to Mary, he makes her aware that the rumors have remained out of the press due to his influence.

Let's not forget Cora's Jewish roots.  Her father was a Levinson from Ohio.  At Rose's wedding, Cora reminds a sneering guest of that fact.

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I had completely forgotten about the letter Edith wrote to the Turkish Ambassador giving the details of Mr. Pamuk's death while in Mary's bed in a attempt to ruin Mary's reputation.  Edith is certainly no saint either.

[bebe777]

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@LoriLori wrote:

Mary has to live at Downton.  I don't think her husband is a "mooch", I think he loves her.  Like the Dowager Countess said, she should marry for love.

I don't think Mary is as bad as people make her out to be.  I think Edith is jealous.  Mary is smart and beautiful.  Men flock to her.  She was widowed so young and loved Matthew so much.  

Edith has always been desperate.  Remember when Downton was turned into a hospital, Lady Sybil, that beautiful soul, was selflessly caring for the wounded -- and Edith was trying to get a husband out of the deal.  Bet she's glad now that guy left her at the altar since she's hooked a very big fish now.

And the woman who was caring for Marigold, Edith treated her abysmally and ended up costing the husband his livelihood.  What's so great about that.  And of course writing to the Turkish Embassy.  

She was dishonest with Bertie and I assume he'll forgive her since we're promised a happy ending and it's too late for her to meet someone else.

Sybil was that rare human being who is just a beacon of love.  Mary and Edith are flawed and that's what makes them so interesting.  

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@LoriLori, Edith had known about the Turkish Embassy scandal for a very long time before she finally -- after prolonged great cruelty from Mary -- sent that letter: 

* Mary has bullied her non-stop from the very first episode. She continually let's Edith know that Edith doesn't stand a prayer of attracting a man. 

* Mary initially attracted her future husband's attentions just to show Edith that see could take him away from Edith....and she got great joy out of doing this. -- Yes, Crawley was never interested in Edith, but Mary was just interested in tormenting Edith.

* When the older suitor (lol, maybe 40ish) was looking for Edith because he was about to propose, Mary told him she didn't know where Edith was. And that, during the party,  Edith had been hiding from an older man whose attentions she did not want. -- So the guy didn't propose (though he did much later and left Edith at the alter).

When Edith found out about what Mary had done, that was the final straw and she wrote to the Turkish Embassy.

* When Mary's husband dies, Mary doesn't leave her room for six months to a year... and everyone seems to understand. Sooooo dramatic... the great love of her life... who was only acceptable when he came to Mary with a bunch of his first wife's money. -- But when Michael is missing in Germany and eventually it turns out that he is dead, Mary has no patience for even a few days of Edith's grief.

* And once again, Mary has intentionally sabotaged Edith's latest marriage prospect with Bertie which would have given Edith a higher rank than Mary. -- Just how much is Edith supposed to take. 

And their parents just watch everything unfold, and just say tsk, tsk Mary you shouldn't do things like that to your sister. -- I'll bet the back story is that this is what constantly happened to poor Edith when she was growing up with Mary. 

Mary is only happy when Mary has everything and Edith has absolutely nothing. -- Mary wants whatever Edith happens to have. It has nothing to do with money. This is one of those unhealthy relationships that can get played out between siblings. Mary is obsessed with the idea tha whatever Edith has got should belong to Mary.

I'm not Mary fan but she does have a necessary and dynamic role in the series.

No one ever had Edith's back... which is probably why she is so desperate to find love.

-- bebe

[bebe777]

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@SharkE wrote:

Isn't he just a race car driver or a mechanic ? Maybe I misunderstood I didn't know he was rich or had a title.

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Actually, I think that that Juilan Fellows has been very crafty about this. -- From what they have implied he is from a gentleman's family and a family of fame and interest at the time.

A few seasons into the show, the Dowager has a Lady Shackleton over for tea. Lady Shackleton mentioned in passing that she had a nephew who lived in the area. It was a throwaway line.

At the end of season five the race car driver mentions that he lives in a nearby region maybe with his aunt... or that he has an aunt close by. At some point, in passing, he mentions that Lady Shackleton is the aunt. 

I'm sure that Lady Shackleton's husband was the famous explorer who went to Antarctica. Maybe ten years ago, there was a documentary movie about Shackleton and there are other movies about him. -- Death defying exploring adventures captured the interest of everyone from the delivery boy to the King of England.

So, he's not just an ordinary race car drive. He's got impressive lineage... just not the money that comes with it.  

Also, the race care he has cost a pretty penny. He may not be rich, but his family was well off enough to get him this spiffy car. 

Julian Fellows has been really sly about sneaking the details of his lineage in.

-- bebe

___

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Shackleton's Antarctic Adventure is a giant-screen film that tells the dramatic true story of explorer Sir Ernest Shackleton's now-legendary 1914-1916 British ...

___

[SharkE]

Thank you!

[LoriLori]

@bebe777, I wasn't the one who brought up the Turkish Embassy but I will have to respectfully disagree with you about Mary and Edith.  I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this anymore than those two see eye to eye!

[surfk]

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@LoriLori wrote:

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@surfk wrote:

I don't think that any of the characters are without flaws. Heck, it wouldn't be a big, ol'soap opera if they were perfect.

The writing got a bit monotonous as the police were involved with nearly every downstairs servant...only to see them all exonerated.

I mean, it was getting to be a cheap device. And this misconception that the Crawley family could keep each out of the news or from becoming a huge scandal (I mean, a husband and then a wife each accused of the murder ....and they both work at Downton??? lol).

And the the police wanted to know about Cora's maid's past as a thief...and police wanted to know where the brother of the Dowager Violet's butler might be...

I mean, after a while, Crawley family or not, that servant staff would get itself quite the reputation.

I mean, local POLICE do talk, you know. They surely make mention to keep an eye on THAT house...and probably tell their wives at dinner all about the criminally suspect staff at Downton.

And then! When the cops got involved AGAIN in the cook's new inn! I swear, it would be nice to have police respond to a 911 so quickly as they did back then to some ridiculous accusation of immorality happening at a bed & breakfast. lol

But as for the Ladys Mary and Edith, I think a lot was drawn from the relationship between the real Queen Elizabeth and her sister, Margaret. Not any of the details, per se. But in the enthroned sensibility of the elder with a sister generally frustrated by her second position - which left her potentially floating and totally reliant on the goodness and generosity of her elder sister.

Edith clearly exhibited the frustration and even some of the acting out one might have seen in Princess Margaret less the alcoholism (Edith just had an out-of-wedlock baby instead. lol)).

So to see Edith emerge from that - as the times came to allow her more personal freedom (thus power) such threatened Lady Mary to some extent.

Mary was accustomed to everything coming with ease - mostly based on her status. She was feeling the ill effects of the social changes in attitude toward her status while Edith was becoming freer under those same social changes.

And a sibling rivalry built on a lifetime of a caste-system pecking order is gong to have its blow outs when everyone isn't in her place...or social attitudes force changes upon such a delicate balance.

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LOL about the police, I hadn't really noticed that, duh!!!

Disagree about the siblings.  Granted many times Mary got in her own way, as she initially did in her romance with Matthew.  But Mary was tragically, suddenly widowed young and we saw she had been depressed and in mourning for many months, practically confined to her rooms until -- without benefit of antidepressants or doctors -- she pulled herself up and got about the business of learning to manage the estate, for George's sake.

All of the Crawley daughters and Rose are groundbreakers by design, modern women prepared for a new age as is Cora, who has adjusted with the times.   Sybil -- whose name evokes "sibling", no doubt by design -- broke class boundaries, Edith has a big job, a "man's" job, and a child; she and Mary both had premarital sex.  Cousin Rose dated a black man and married a Jew.

Mary might have rested on her beauty and charm and done nothing more modern than get a bob haircut, but instead she approached the task of learning to run Downton with enthusiasm and determination.  Never thought we'd see her filthy in a pig pen, and laughing about it!

I'm going to miss this show so much. I love all the characters except O'Brien.  And even if Fellowes does make the prequel it will be with other actors.  

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Well, I agree that very few characters on the series have been written as evil incarnate. They each have their strengths and their weaknesses. As such, Lady Mary surely has her positive qualities but, sadly, she often undermines them by her staunch pretenses and elitism.

So while one feels badly for her when certain tragedies occur, she has a hard time allowing those feelings to show or have much impact upon her empathy for others.

In that way, interestingly-enough, she makes me think of that great complex heroine, Scarlett O'Hara. She surely was an affected snob but one with a heart to be found...somewhere deep, deep, deeeeeeep within. lol

She proved to usually be her own (and oftentimes only) worst enemy. Rhett Butler and Melany, too, could see her goodness within. Sadly, Scarlett herself seemed to remain either clueless or disregarded those qualities within herself.

In a similar way, I think the character of Lady Mary follows a similar template. For all her goodness, she undermines it with moments of horrible indifference to the feelings or situations of others. And when she's acting out badly, suddenly, she finds her goodness surprisingly from within (like when Scarlett O'Hara would find and draw upon her real inner strengths on occasion as she was called into service).

So I agree that Lady Mary has her charms. She isn't a "bad" person. But to a great degree, she's a product of and even a bit of a victim of her upbringing and social status.

In marrying the race car driver, it is the first time that she CHOSE to truly adjust her attitudes and to become "modern". The rest - the clothes and hairbob - were rather superficial nods to changing times. But the choice in the end to scrap status and privilege for love is really perhaps Mary's first genuine foray into becoming a 20th century woman.

[LoriLori]

@surfk, I have thought of Scarlett sometimes too with Mary!

I do think her foray into the pig pen was a big step forward.  Vain Mary covered in pig slop and laughing about it.  And trying out Tony Gillingham.  But mostly I agree with what you wrote and even Scarlett's sisters, I remember one whose potential marriage she ruined by marrying the guy for his money, and the other sister defending her much as Sybil probably did.