Pet Lovers

[CrazyDaisy]

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@151949 wrote:

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@tends2dogs wrote:

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@CrazyDaisy wrote:

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@151949 wrote:

We had an invisible fence - it only took one afternoon for our dog to get that the collar beep meant she was going to get a shock if she did not stop. After that within a few weeks we took the collar off and never used it again.She was border trained. We also used it to train her to heel with out a leash and never had to use the shock - all we had to do was hit the beeper.Yes, we used a professional trainer . Money very well spent, and this is how military and police dogs are trained.

Where we live now there is an alligator infested lake behind our houses and one of our neighbors is a professional trainer. He trained many people's dogs here to stay away from the lake using a shock collar. So what is more cruel - let the dog get eaten by an alligator or use a shock collar to train it to stay out of their reach and out of danger? When I hear what some of the neighbors here consider training a dog I really have to just SMH - "Oh Fluffy, no no , don't bite that person's leg he is our neighbor" as they wag a finger at the dog or "sh sh  Fluffy we aren't allowed to bark outside" OMG - get a clue.

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You can train a dog to stay away from the lakes without using a shock collar. Just as you can teach a child without smacking them.  It is called paying attention and working with them.  Positive methods get positive results.

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@CrazyDaisy  I agree!  People want quick and easy.  As a poster said, it takes time and patience to train a dog.  If you don't have either, don't get a dog.  This is a life long commitment when you take in a dog.  One should think long and hard before taking on this responsibility if they are going to do right by them.

I agree about the invisable fence being a negative form of training also.  I woud never trust it.  We have a lake behind our house in Florida and I would never think to open the door and let my dog out loose.  Our dogs have alway been on a leash when there is no fence.  It is called responsible ownership. 

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And while you are being patient your dog can be dead. Seriously.

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Not if you are watching them.  The invisible fence will not keep the gator out of your yard nor will it keep the dog away from it if it is in your yard.  IF, and that is a big IF, the fencing works properly, the only thing it does is keep your dog confined with a predator after them.  Bottom line, if you can not physically protect them with a real fence you need to be watching them.

[CrazyDaisy]

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@Pitbull wrote:

Not sure how e-collar training is "lazier" than the positive training methods, since both heavily rely on correct timing to succeed. Personally, I would never completely eliminate ANY humane training tool if it meant that my animal wasn't reliably trained. Positive training methods rely on the dog finding value in a correctly timed reward, but many shelter animals have such a strong distrust of humans that they are reluctant to respond to rewards. And positive training frequently fails miserably in highly stimulating environments with multiple distractions. Then you need to consider the unique genetic backgrounds of breeds with high prey drive and/or those bred to work independently, like most terriers. The bottom line is, there is no"one size fits all" approach to effective dog training. An experienced professional will quickly recognize the best approach for the individual animal and utilize any number of humane tools and methods to help your pet become a well-behaved and safe member of your family. 

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I know many professional trainers and you are correct they have a variety of methods to help you train your dog.  However none, repeat none, of them would ever recommend a shock collar.

[tends2dogs]

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@151949 wrote:

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@tends2dogs wrote:

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@CrazyDaisy wrote:

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@151949 wrote:

We had an invisible fence - it only took one afternoon for our dog to get that the collar beep meant she was going to get a shock if she did not stop. After that within a few weeks we took the collar off and never used it again.She was border trained. We also used it to train her to heel with out a leash and never had to use the shock - all we had to do was hit the beeper.Yes, we used a professional trainer . Money very well spent, and this is how military and police dogs are trained.

Where we live now there is an alligator infested lake behind our houses and one of our neighbors is a professional trainer. He trained many people's dogs here to stay away from the lake using a shock collar. So what is more cruel - let the dog get eaten by an alligator or use a shock collar to train it to stay out of their reach and out of danger? When I hear what some of the neighbors here consider training a dog I really have to just SMH - "Oh Fluffy, no no , don't bite that person's leg he is our neighbor" as they wag a finger at the dog or "sh sh  Fluffy we aren't allowed to bark outside" OMG - get a clue.

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You can train a dog to stay away from the lakes without using a shock collar. Just as you can teach a child without smacking them.  It is called paying attention and working with them.  Positive methods get positive results.

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@CrazyDaisy  I agree!  People want quick and easy.  As a poster said, it takes time and patience to train a dog.  If you don't have either, don't get a dog.  This is a life long commitment when you take in a dog.  One should think long and hard before taking on this responsibility if they are going to do right by them.

I agree about the invisable fence being a negative form of training also.  I woud never trust it.  We have a lake behind our house in Florida and I would never think to open the door and let my dog out loose.  Our dogs have alway been on a leash when there is no fence.  It is called responsible ownership. 

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And while you are being patient your dog can be dead. Seriously.

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@151949  I would and could never trust a shock collar to protect my dog from harm.  It isn't going to keep an alligator from crossing the "invisable" barrier and getting your dog.  We have a fenced in area for our dog and when he isn't in that area while outside, he is on a leash.  We don't let our dog out without being with him. 

[151949]

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@CrazyDaisy wrote:

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@Pitbull wrote:

Not sure how e-collar training is "lazier" than the positive training methods, since both heavily rely on correct timing to succeed. Personally, I would never completely eliminate ANY humane training tool if it meant that my animal wasn't reliably trained. Positive training methods rely on the dog finding value in a correctly timed reward, but many shelter animals have such a strong distrust of humans that they are reluctant to respond to rewards. And positive training frequently fails miserably in highly stimulating environments with multiple distractions. Then you need to consider the unique genetic backgrounds of breeds with high prey drive and/or those bred to work independently, like most terriers. The bottom line is, there is no"one size fits all" approach to effective dog training. An experienced professional will quickly recognize the best approach for the individual animal and utilize any number of humane tools and methods to help your pet become a well-behaved and safe member of your family. 

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I know many professional trainers and you are correct they have a variety of methods to help you train your dog.  However none, repeat none, of them would ever recommend a shock collar.

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MANY professional trainers use shock collars and what you said here just shows you really do not know anything about these collars. They are not enough of a shock to "hurt" the dog - it just gets their attention. And , as I stated before the collar can be set to beep first and any halfway intelligent dog learns in a couple of times that the beep leads to a shock and so they respond to the beep and never again get shocked.

[tends2dogs]

My sister's neighbor has 3 large dogs and an invisable fence.  When people walk by, they charge the street barking and then veer off because of the "invisable" barrier.  It is VERY intimidating to anyone walking by.  This woman is very lax about making sure that the batteries are working on the collars and often these dogs have gone beyond the barrier.  She is in the house, oblivious, and the dogs are gone.  Irresponsible in my book.  It is just plain bad news for the dogs and for the public.

If there was a real fence, this wouldn't be a problem.

[Shanus]

@tends2dogs  My beagles have a fenced area off the kitchen that they use freely through a doggie door. The rest of our property is "covered" by an invisible fence. Beagles are a nose on 4 legs no matter how much training they've had (at least all the ones I've had are that way). We wanted to be able to garden & have them outside with us or something as simple as opening the door for the pizza man without them running into the street. Without their actual, physical fence, you are correct. The dogs are not protected from other animals coming into the yard. Even in a crowded city neiborhood, we have families of deer show up on our front porch. Our side fence is high enough to keep them away from the dogs. 

[JeanLouiseFinch]

Flame away, but I am in favor of using an E-collar, as long as it is used appropriately.  I do not endorse using them willy nilly for every little thing and just clicking away on the thing.  No, that would be mean.  The click of the transmitter should always be reinforced with the corrective, sharp "No" so the dog makes the connection. Done right, bad behaviors are nipped in the bud quickly and no longer remain an issue.  I also see it as benefical for the dog's own safety.  

To give you some background, @SahmIam, we entered into a similar situation as your friends.  We were the third home for our big boy before he was a year old.  The first owner had to give him up when she was moving to a location where she couldn't keep him.  The second owner was a family member with a young busy family who, for whatever reason, didn't keep up with the reinforcement homework from his obedience classes.  Consequently, he ended up with a mind of his own and didn't know what "no" meant, and as he got bigger, he became a handful for them.  Even so, he was the dog I dreamed of for years and I was willing to work with him.  We enrolled him in a second round of obedience training so that DH and I would be on the same page with what he'd already been exposed to.  We practiced faithfully, giving positive reinforcement and praise, and yet there were two things he just couldn't stop doing in the house; finding the cat box (and eating any solids) and counter surfing in the kitchen.  Yes, I could keep the laundry room door closed so he couldn't get in there, but then the cat couldn't either.  As for the counter surfing, I tried everything; keeping him on a leash in the house so he couldn't wander, watching him and waiting with a can of pennies to shake when I caught him trying to assend, setting up a bunch of empty cans for him to knock over and get startled enough to not do it again.  My BIL even suggested staging mousetraps.  Nothing worked.  

We also wanted our dog to be able to enjoy the freedom of our unfenced yard, being able to run free.  But I also am very well aware of one of my neighbors, the one right behind us.  He is very mean when it comes to animals in his yard.  When our kids were small, we had an outdoor cat.  One day we saw pawprints in the snow leaving our yard toward his, and the cat never returned after that.  Knowing the neighbor, from a story he'd told us at an earlier time, how another neighbor's kittens wandered from home and into his yard, and how he took care of them with a hose and an old trash can, we all knew our cat had met its demise.  I certainly don't want the same thing happening if my dog wanders over there just because he was inquisitive.  Plus, we live on a corner so an eager, strong willed dog could be in the street in no time.

DH and I decided to get an E-collar.  I am not lying when I tell you, it only took one time to catch the dog going into the laundry room and one time catching him assending the kitchen counter to get those two things nipped in the bud.  As for outdoors, we did boundary training with him by walking the property and doing a gentle jerk on the leash when he'd try to go beyond where he was allowed.  Off leash, temptation would sometimes get the best of him because as a sporting breed, it was in his nature to chase little animals.  We used the E-collar and now he can go around our yard freely, but stay where he belongs.  He'll chase a squirrel or rabbit all the way across the yard and knows the stop at the property line when the squirrel or rabbit runs to the next yard.  He doesn't step into the street.  He can watch the kids and dogs across the street and never leave our yard.  Oh, he'll bark at them or other people walking by, hoping they'll come see him, but he stays and watches from where he's supposed to.  Our colar has three options - a non-electric vibration, a "nick" stimulation, and a "constant" stimilation.  The strength can go from 1-150. I don't think we used it beyond 50 or 60.  I can assure you, our dog is a well-loved, very happy boy, full of personality, isn't skittish or afraid, and is safe in our yard.

[CrazyDaisy]

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@151949 wrote:

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@CrazyDaisy wrote:

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@Pitbull wrote:

Not sure how e-collar training is "lazier" than the positive training methods, since both heavily rely on correct timing to succeed. Personally, I would never completely eliminate ANY humane training tool if it meant that my animal wasn't reliably trained. Positive training methods rely on the dog finding value in a correctly timed reward, but many shelter animals have such a strong distrust of humans that they are reluctant to respond to rewards. And positive training frequently fails miserably in highly stimulating environments with multiple distractions. Then you need to consider the unique genetic backgrounds of breeds with high prey drive and/or those bred to work independently, like most terriers. The bottom line is, there is no"one size fits all" approach to effective dog training. An experienced professional will quickly recognize the best approach for the individual animal and utilize any number of humane tools and methods to help your pet become a well-behaved and safe member of your family. 

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I know many professional trainers and you are correct they have a variety of methods to help you train your dog.  However none, repeat none, of them would ever recommend a shock collar.

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MANY professional trainers use shock collars and what you said here just shows you really do not know anything about these collars. They are not enough of a shock to "hurt" the dog - it just gets their attention. And , as I stated before the collar can be set to beep first and any halfway intelligent dog learns in a couple of times that the beep leads to a shock and so they respond to the beep and never again get shocked.

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As I said I personally know many professionals who would never use them.  Not sure what kind of people you hang out with.  if this  method is so great and effective why is it not used on people, just animals who don't have a voice.

[ccassaday]

My biggest gripe with a E collar is most people don't use them correctly. If they are used correctly they can work. But I know people who have used them when their dog jumps on people. All that did was make the dog afraid of people because they thought the person they were jumping on was hurting them. Or letting your dog see you push the button can make them afraid of you. There are certain situations they should not be used. And they are only to be used to reinforce a command the dog already knows. So if your going to use one get professional advice on when and how to use it.

[151949]

I havde a next door neighbor who has a dog that barks incessantly. I would pay a million dollars to have a shock collar on that dog for one week.The owner does nothing to train him - Oh fluffy you know that is not nice - Now fluffy I've told you about barking. I have actually begged this woman - who is a very nice person - to take this dog to a professional trainer. It may not bother you that the dog barks incessantly or runs at people or jumps on them etc but trust me - it bothers other people.