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Honored Contributor
Posts: 12,794
Registered: ‎11-16-2014

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job


@stevieb wrote:

@Trinity11 A contractor 'forgetting' a freakin' hammer is pretty ridiculous... I understand your dilemma, though... The work needs to get done, the ceiling is ripped out and they're there, with no guarantees that anyone else would be any better or cheaper... It really is a sorry mess the state that 'workmanship quality' has arrived at... I'm not sure there are any truly good craftsmen out there anymore... And, I suppose the one who are don't need to advertise. Their work spreads by word of mouth from satisfied customers. Obviously, it's your call. It's easy for people to tell you to lock them out and keep looking, but again, who's to say what you'll get the next time around. Is the revised figure markedly more? If so, then it might be worth pitching a hissy... If not, I might consider letting them finish the work and assuming it's done well THEN suggest a compromise on the price... After all, two can do the bait and switch... I'm not necessarily opposed to a price being given by email. It's just the way things work these days, but it would be best if you had saved the document, such as it was... Again, good luck...


My husband isn't all that bothered by any of it. I wish I had his disposition. He said a few hundred dollars is like chickenfeed.

 

It is good to read that a lot of us would be bothered, though, by this.

Respected Contributor
Posts: 4,010
Registered: ‎08-29-2010

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job

@Trinity11   There is a difference between an estimate and a contract.  If you conducted all your business with this contractor via Email (and saved all of it), that can be used as a written contract. 

 

Angieslist offers dispute resolution for Gold level members.  If you have that, contact Angie ASAP.

 

His willingness to cheat on taxes says a lot about his character, which brings to mind what other corners he cuts. For example, did he get a permit for this job?  Our community requires all specifications to be submitted and approved in advance.  Without a permit, the job can be shut down.  Call your city hall and inform yourself about your community's requirements.  If a permit is needed, and he didn't get one (which I suspect is likely), they will most likely go after him for you.

 

Don't let yourself be cheated by an unscrupulous contractor.  I'll be interested in seeing how this gets resolved, so please keep us updated.  Good luck to you.

Strive for respect instead of attention. It lasts longer.
Honored Contributor
Posts: 12,794
Registered: ‎11-16-2014

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job


@IamMrsG wrote:

@Trinity11   There is a difference between an estimate and a contract.  If you conducted all your business with this contractor via Email (and saved all of it), that can be used as a written contract. 

 

Angieslist offers dispute resolution for Gold level members.  If you have that, contact Angie ASAP.

 

His willingness to cheat on taxes says a lot about his character, which brings to mind what other corners he cuts. For example, did he get a permit for this job?  Our community requires all specifications to be submitted and approved in advance.  Without a permit, the job can be shut down.  Call your city hall and inform yourself about your community's requirements.  If a permit is needed, and he didn't get one (which I suspect is likely), they will most likely go after him for you.

 

Don't let yourself be cheated by an unscrupulous contractor.  I'll be interested in seeing how this gets resolved, so please keep us updated.  Good luck to you.


Thanks @IamMrsG. No permit was necessary. The job was under $5000.00.

 

I will just be happy when it is done.

Respected Contributor
Posts: 4,010
Registered: ‎08-29-2010

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job


@Trinity11 wrote:

I just realized that there really was no signed contract. The estimate was sent by email and I deleted it. They have already torn out the ceiling so we are stuck. It has been a lesson, though, to get at least a Written contract.

 

They just left to get some sheetrock and when they came back they actually asked my husband if we have a hammer. I dread the next couple of days....they claim they need 3 days now to fix this.

 

 

@Trinity11  If your Email has one, look for this estimate in your Trash folder.  Most people don't empty that folder often, and it could still be there.

 

Another suggestion would be to go to Angieslist now (rather than after the job is finished) and write a frank review about your experience to date, including his offer to cheat on taxes.  Angie's people probably won't like that.  


 

Strive for respect instead of attention. It lasts longer.
Honored Contributor
Posts: 38,157
Registered: ‎03-09-2010

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job


@Trinity11 wrote:

@Sooner wrote:

If tax is due and he's not paying tax for cash, doesn't that mean he's a crook, de facto?  Maybe I'm missing something here.  


My neighbor told me he was asked the same thing for every job he has had done on his house. The contractors often prefer cash. On a credit card they have to pay a fee.

 

I do understand what you mean, though, @Sooner


 

 

@Trinity11  I paid my contractor with checks.  Every time something was added or deleted fromt he work, he sent a change order listing charges and reason.  I would never pay in cash as then you have no proof that you paid.

 

This sounds so unprofessional, I would get rid of them pronto.

 

 

Respected Contributor
Posts: 3,875
Registered: ‎04-27-2015

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job

@Trinity11 this is wrong. I would make Angie's List aware and then write a review accordingly. They do have you at their mercy so you are stuck for now. So sorry this has happened to you . 

Honored Contributor
Posts: 24,102
Registered: ‎03-09-2010

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job


@mousiegirl wrote:

@Trinity11 wrote:

@Sooner wrote:

If tax is due and he's not paying tax for cash, doesn't that mean he's a crook, de facto?  Maybe I'm missing something here.  


My neighbor told me he was asked the same thing for every job he has had done on his house. The contractors often prefer cash. On a credit card they have to pay a fee.

 

I do understand what you mean, though, @Sooner


 

 

@Trinity11  I paid my contractor with checks.  Every time something was added or deleted fromt he work, he sent a change order listing charges and reason.  I would never pay in cash as then you have no proof that you paid.

 

This sounds so unprofessional, I would get rid of them pronto.

 

 


Locally many private contractors/businesses won't take checks due to the number that bounce. It's a cash or credit card only type deal and they prefer cash so they don't have to pay the credit card surcharges. When you pay in cash they'll always give you a signed receipt showing the amount you paid, so you do have proof that you paid. It's not always about tax evasion, it's often about survival for the small business.

 

I don't know the specifics in this case regarding the extra cost, but once you start opening up walls and ceilings, you never know what you'll find. For a leaking ceiling repair they might have found wet insulation they weren't expecting, a different thickness of drywall than they were expecting, mold or mildew that they feel obliged to remedy. If the leak was a long term leak there can be unanticipated structural damage that needs to be repaired. 

 

Estimating a job is a nightmare. If you look at a job where there had been a leaky roof, now repaired, and the homeowner wants the now damaged ceiling fixed, the cost to patch a small piece of damaged drywall could be minimal and take next to no time. In a best case scenario I'd measure out the area to be replaced, say a 12" by 12" square. Cut a piece that sized out of a spare piece of drywall. Temporarily secure it over the damaged section using a drywall screw. Then use that as a template to cut out the damaged section. Remove the template. Take out the damaged section of drywall  Add cleats around the existing drywall on the ceiling. Secure the patch to the cleats and any joist/rafter available. Apply joint tape and the first bed of a quick drying joint compound. Let that set for the twenty minutes or so necessary then apply a second coat of quick-setting joint compound, feathering it out over a wider area. Then a light sanding and one final coat of joint compound feathering out the edges even more. One final sanding and the repair is done other than priming and painting. A quick drying primer could be used and then a quick topcoat and the problem is gone. You might be looking at $200 for a job like that and the total time involved might be three hours and most of that time would be spent waiting for the joint compound and paint to dry. Total cost for materials would be under $20. Making $180 for three hours work isn't bad.

 

If however I give a $200 estimate then when I come to patch it, find that damage is far more extensive, there's wet insulation that needs to be replaced (God help you if there's asbestos insulation, mold, mildew, lead paint, etc.) or the drywall is a unique thickness. that can't be matched (some old houses have 'interesting' materials used for finishes) then you might be looking at taking down the whole ceiling and replacing it all which would cost you more than the original estimate in materials alone. That $200 small patch that takes a couple of hours might now be a $5,000 or more job that'll take days/weeks to finish. You just don't know what you'll find until you open it up and then you have to adjust on the fly. 

 

If a contractor assumes the worst and gives you the $5,000 estimate and everyone else is assuming the best and giving you a $200 estimate, that $5,000 estimate won't get the job. As a general rule, assume the estimate is a best case scenario estimate, and understand that the best case scenario is a rare scenario. 

Fly!!! Eagles!!! Fly!!!
Honored Contributor
Posts: 12,794
Registered: ‎11-16-2014

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job


@gardenman wrote:

@mousiegirl wrote:

@Trinity11 wrote:

@Sooner wrote:

If tax is due and he's not paying tax for cash, doesn't that mean he's a crook, de facto?  Maybe I'm missing something here.  


My neighbor told me he was asked the same thing for every job he has had done on his house. The contractors often prefer cash. On a credit card they have to pay a fee.

 

I do understand what you mean, though, @Sooner


 

 

@Trinity11  I paid my contractor with checks.  Every time something was added or deleted fromt he work, he sent a change order listing charges and reason.  I would never pay in cash as then you have no proof that you paid.

 

This sounds so unprofessional, I would get rid of them pronto.

 

 


Locally many private contractors/businesses won't take checks due to the number that bounce. It's a cash or credit card only type deal and they prefer cash so they don't have to pay the credit card surcharges. When you pay in cash they'll always give you a signed receipt showing the amount you paid, so you do have proof that you paid. It's not always about tax evasion, it's often about survival for the small business.

 

I don't know the specifics in this case regarding the extra cost, but once you start opening up walls and ceilings, you never know what you'll find. For a leaking ceiling repair they might have found wet insulation they weren't expecting, a different thickness of drywall than they were expecting, mold or mildew that they feel obliged to remedy. If the leak was a long term leak there can be unanticipated structural damage that needs to be repaired. 

 

Estimating a job is a nightmare. If you look at a job where there had been a leaky roof, now repaired, and the homeowner wants the now damaged ceiling fixed, the cost to patch a small piece of damaged drywall could be minimal and take next to no time. In a best case scenario I'd measure out the area to be replaced, say a 12" by 12" square. Cut a piece that sized out of a spare piece of drywall. Temporarily secure it over the damaged section using a drywall screw. Then use that as a template to cut out the damaged section. Remove the template. Take out the damaged section of drywall  Add cleats around the existing drywall on the ceiling. Secure the patch to the cleats and any joist/rafter available. Apply joint tape and the first bed of a quick drying joint compound. Let that set for the twenty minutes or so necessary then apply a second coat of quick-setting joint compound, feathering it out over a wider area. Then a light sanding and one final coat of joint compound feathering out the edges even more. One final sanding and the repair is done other than priming and painting. A quick drying primer could be used and then a quick topcoat and the problem is gone. You might be looking at $200 for a job like that and the total time involved might be three hours and most of that time would be spent waiting for the joint compound and paint to dry. Total cost for materials would be under $20. Making $180 for three hours work isn't bad.

 

If however I give a $200 estimate then when I come to patch it, find that damage is far more extensive, there's wet insulation that needs to be replaced (God help you if there's asbestos insulation, mold, mildew, lead paint, etc.) or the drywall is a unique thickness. that can't be matched (some old houses have 'interesting' materials used for finishes) then you might be looking at taking down the whole ceiling and replacing it all which would cost you more than the original estimate in materials alone. That $200 small patch that takes a couple of hours might now be a $5,000 or more job that'll take days/weeks to finish. You just don't know what you'll find until you open it up and then you have to adjust on the fly. 

 

If a contractor assumes the worst and gives you the $5,000 estimate and everyone else is assuming the best and giving you a $200 estimate, that $5,000 estimate won't get the job. As a general rule, assume the estimate is a best case scenario estimate, and understand that the best case scenario is a rare scenario. 


@gardenman....no mold, nothing out of the ordinary. He is finishing up now painting the ceiling. It took 3 days. The first day two men were here and they worked for more than eight hours. Lots of breaks of course, though. Yesterday, they were here for about two hours. Today a few hours because they are painting everything. They were very neat and did a good job from what I have seen so far. The price was well over a grand but I guess you get what you pay for. We also live in an area where contractors generally charge a lot. Most of the homes around here are a lot fancier than ours is.....

Trusted Contributor
Posts: 1,927
Registered: ‎03-10-2010

Re: When a contractor changes the estimate mid job

[ Edited ]
The price does not sound outrageous, if it is a real business. Then they would have to pay the men's salaries, their social security, health insurance, benefits, overhead for the office and office staff, liability insurance, workers' compensation insurance, equipment costs (although perhaps not a hammer) etc. Oh, and make some profit for the business owner(s) or what's the point of having a business. However, I would be annoyed in the change in price - without an explanation.
Do the math.