Electronics

[okiebug]

Were the duplicate checks for online purchases or a purchase called in by phone? Someone could have easily snapped a picture of your Mom's check to get the information, placed an order online using the checking account info or called in to the store to hold an item for them and given the check information over the phone. Unfortunately, a store clerk could have manually entered the information in the check reader by overriding the reader giving the reason the check wasn't going through the machine because of a tear or whatever. I've seen the clerks at WalMart having to do that when the check wouldn't go through the slot.

That's so sad someone took advantage of your Mom. She is probably feeling violated and even fearful. I know I would.

[Madisson]

On 10/11/2014 okiebug said:

Were the duplicate checks for online purchases or a purchase called in by phone? Someone could have easily snapped a picture of your Mom's check to get the information, placed an order online using the checking account info or called in to the store to hold an item for them and given the check information over the phone. Unfortunately, a store clerk could have manually entered the information in the check reader by overriding the reader giving the reason the check wasn't going through the machine because of a tear or whatever. I've seen the clerks at WalMart having to do that when the check wouldn't go through the slot.

That's so sad someone took advantage of your Mom. She is probably feeling violated and even fearful. I know I would.

Okiebug, the original check with the number was used directly to purchase something in a store. The second check with the same number we are unsure of. It was used to purchase some items from a Walgreen's store in our county.

Fortunately, the bank did refund the original $2,000...but now we are dealing with this $100 check issue.

The ironic thing is that my mother has always been so cautious about refusing to use debit cards in stores or credit cards online, and then this happens to her checking account.

[okiebug]

Madisson, it's sad, my Mom thought checks were safer as well. My feeling is a check is a piece of paper with all my information floating around, handled by who knows how many people before it gets to the bank, and my bank doesn't return my cancelled checks anymore. At least with a debit card, once it's swiped, the only information on paper is the last 4 digits of the card. I hope the bank can track down the thief.

[HandJive]

On 10/11/2014 Madisson said:

The ironic thing is that my mother has always been so cautious about refusing to use debit cards in stores or credit cards online, and then this happens to her checking account.

Consider checking your mother's credit report to see if identity theft is involved also, the bank might do it for you, my bank did when it happened to me. Did her bank add fraud protection to her new account as well, considering she's already been a victim - something my bank also did.

[Lynnj]

On 10/11/2014 Madisson said:

On 10/11/2014 Lynnj said:

On 10/11/2014 Madisson said:

On 10/11/2014 glb613 said:

On 10/10/2014 Caffeina said:

All someone needs is the routing number, account number, and the right printer, and they can make counterfeit checks.

They don't need to make a paper check to do this. Where did she write a legitimate check using that number?

I'm curious by your statement that they do not need a paper check to do this. How would they do it without a paper check? The check was written to a Walgreens store. It was listed on the bank statement as "POP (Point of Purchase) Walgreens ACH Withdrawal."

When checks are listed as POP ACH Withdrawal, the bank does not have or show a copy of the check. When checks are listed as "Regular Check" or "OTC Check" on the statement, the bank shows a copy of the check.

Like another poster said all that's needed is the account number and routing number. Both of which are in plain view on any check. Once you have this, you can make up any check number and tell someone that number for a check payment. When stores take a physical check as a payment, there is no verification system in place that checks that number against all sequenced check numbers on a persons account. Nothing really happens until the check is deposited at the stores bank account, goes through Central Bank Processing, and eventually applied to the account that the check was drawn from. A check is a promissory note to pay, all on a written piece of paper. Nothing actually happens until the check is presented to the payee account for processing, and there a many stops along the way to get there. Often crooks are long gone by the time a check is fully verified. There is risk involved for the party that accepts that as a form of payment, as well as the party that initiates this as a form of payment.

Interesting, but who would sell something by accepting only the account number and routing number of someone's check? I guess I just don't get it.

I've made payments by phone using a check. It's not something I've done recently, but I remember calling my utility company a few years ago and making my monthly payment with that check process. I gave them my account number, routing number, and check number to them over the phone. I guess they keyed all of this into their system. They told me to void the check so I wouldn't use that check number again, but to make an entry in my check register for the check number and amount.

[Lynnj]

On 10/11/2014 okiebug said:

Were the duplicate checks for online purchases or a purchase called in by phone? Someone could have easily snapped a picture of your Mom's check to get the information, placed an order online using the checking account info or called in to the store to hold an item for them and given the check information over the phone. Unfortunately, a store clerk could have manually entered the information in the check reader by overriding the reader giving the reason the check wasn't going through the machine because of a tear or whatever. I've seen the clerks at WalMart having to do that when the check wouldn't go through the slot.

That's so sad someone took advantage of your Mom. She is probably feeling violated and even fearful. I know I would.

OP needs to have the bank send a copy of the check (both checks actually) to her so she can see the writing on the check to verify it was her Moms handwriting on one of the checks. If the bank says that one of the transaction was ACH and doesn't have a physical check copy to send, then she will know that one of the transactions were the type that was keyed in by the store. In that case, no way to tell if it was a crook or not. Maybe her Mom agreed to something with someone by phone? For all we know maybe her mom gave out the check number to someone, then a day or two later, a physical check was written for something else using that same number. On the other hand, human error happens all of the time, maybe someone at the store keyed something in wrong for another customers transaction. It's possible this other customer has the same bank as OP mom, and account number very close as OP mom, and it happened to be the exact same check number. Just because this situation with duplicate check number happened to OP mom, doesn't necessarily mean some crime or fraud happened. Could just be human error, either when store processed the check, or when back processed the check. FYI - not all of my reply is directed at you, or your reply to OP. I hope you don't take it that way. But your reply asks the OP specific questions, and until she has a physical copy of both checks in front of her, she only can provide speculation as an answer.

[Lynnj]

On 10/11/2014 okiebug said:

Madisson, it's sad, my Mom thought checks were safer as well. My feeling is a check is a piece of paper with all my information floating around, handled by who knows how many people before it gets to the bank, and my bank doesn't return my cancelled checks anymore. At least with a debit card, once it's swiped, the only information on paper is the last 4 digits of the card. I hope the bank can track down the thief.

I agree. Debit and credit card is much safer than checks. Just think of what could happen starting with the bank mailing a box of new checks to you. If that box gets lost in the mail, or someone at the post office is dishonest and takes that box without delivering, or even if it is delivered and someone off the street can steal mail out of your mailbox. There is risk in just getting the box of checks delivered to you, let alone how many have access to your paper check after you write one somewhere. Heck, there is even risk in paying a bill with check by mail. Someone could steal that somewhere along the way and have access to your bank account and routing number. I feel much safer with credit and debit cards, and haven't used checks in years.

[okiebug]

n/m

[Lynnj]

On 10/11/2014 okiebug said:

On 10/11/2014 Lynnj said:

On 10/11/2014 okiebug said:

Were the duplicate checks for online purchases or a purchase called in by phone? Someone could have easily snapped a picture of your Mom's check to get the information, placed an order online using the checking account info or called in to the store to hold an item for them and given the check information over the phone. Unfortunately, a store clerk could have manually entered the information in the check reader by overriding the reader giving the reason the check wasn't going through the machine because of a tear or whatever. I've seen the clerks at WalMart having to do that when the check wouldn't go through the slot.

That's so sad someone took advantage of your Mom. She is probably feeling violated and even fearful. I know I would.

OP needs to have the bank send a copy of the check (both checks actually) to her so she can see the writing on the check to verify it was her Moms handwriting on one of the checks. If the bank says that one of the transaction was ACH and doesn't have a physical check copy to send, then she will know that one of the transactions were the type that was keyed in by the store. In that case, no way to tell if it was a crook or not. Maybe her Mom agreed to something with someone by phone? For all we know maybe her mom gave out the check number to someone, then a day or two later, a physical check was written for something else using that same number. On the other hand, human error happens all of the time, maybe someone at the store keyed something in wrong for another customers transaction. It's possible this other customer has the same bank as OP mom, and account number very close as OP mom, and it happened to be the exact same check number. Just because this situation with duplicate check number happened to OP mom, doesn't necessarily mean some crime or fraud happened. Could just be human error, either when store processed the check, or when back processed the check. FYI - not all of my reply is directed at you, or your reply to OP. I hope you don't take it that way. But your reply asks the OP specific questions, and until she has a physical copy of both checks in front of her, she only can provide speculation as an answer.

Yes, it is speculation as to what happened. But you are also speculating that the OP's Mom has a bad memory and doesn't remember calling in a payment or that a number of rare coincidences happened at the same time. I think fraud is easier to believe.

I pointed that out as another possible option, not saying that mom did that. But, given her mom is 90, and from the tone of OP post she seems to have some level of engagement with her moms finances whether directly or indirectly, it is also believable that her mom did something without her knowledge and doesn't remember. But just as I pointed out mom possible involvement, I also pointed out human error in data entry with check processing either at the store or bank. Just speculating along with everyone on three possible scenarios, crime, mom, human error.

[Madisson]

Hi, Everyone! So far, we haven't heard anything about the check. I'm going to really talk to my mother about how checks are less safe than debit and credit cards. Thank you for that input Okiebug and Lynnj.

My mother might be 90, but her mental acuity is very high. She would never give out numbers over the phone. She freaks out about junk mail having her name, address, and even account numbers on it...so she shreds it or tears that part out.

Kathoderay, thanks for the suggestions about checking her credit report and asking the bank about fraud protection. I would think they should offer it. She has a lot of money invested in or by that bank. I'll give her personal banker a call on Tuesday.