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‎06-20-2016 07:58 PM - edited ‎06-20-2016 07:59 PM
Grollneck reserved his anger for the police commanders in Florida who didn't allow SWAT team members to enter until several hours after the shooter began the attack.
The decision by law enforcement to hold off on entering the club - where more than 100 people were shot, 49 of them killed - immediately raised questions among experts in police tactics. They said the lessons learned from other mass shootings show that officers must get inside swiftly - even at great risk - to stop the threat and save lives.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/delay-orlando-police-response-nightclub-massacre-examined/
‎06-20-2016 08:00 PM
@Helen47 wrote:@fortune, I agree with you. The day after the shooting, I saw an interview with one of the family members. She said she was there after receiving a text, and was surprised they were waiting so long, 3 hrs.?, before going in to help the victims. She was very upset. Later, someone on the police force, can't remember who, was asked why they waited, and this person said they had to be sure of what was going on and were assessing the situation. I respect that. Since that time, I've heard conflicting stories. IMO, at this point, I do believe there was a delay going in, I'm just not sure how long.
@SleeplessinSD I haven't read all the thread but I would agree that the police would not put more lives (their's) at risk until they knew of the situation. The shooter claimed to be wired with explosives I believe. As tragic as the situation was, were that the case, many more lives could have been lost.
‎06-20-2016 10:08 PM
Yeah, it doesn't look good for Orlando PD/SWAT.
The response time was too long.
Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
‎06-21-2016 12:20 AM - edited ‎06-21-2016 12:27 AM
@truffle wrote:People bled to death that could have been saved if there had been some smart people in swat. Unfortunately, there were not.
And you would know that, how again? Oops, I forgot. You believe everyone that has a camera for a news network that pushes "talking as facts". And they do that why? Ratings=sponsors=more $$$$.
I will stick with the ones that you perceive as, not too smart people, in lieu of geniuses I assume like, you can fill in whom you might think I am addressing.
‎06-21-2016 06:32 AM
@fortune wrote:I'm skeptical about the Orlando police story that they got to the Pulse Nightclub a little after 2 a.m. and ALL the shooting from the suspect took place in that time period.
They said after it became a "hostage situation" for the next THREE HOURS, there was NO shooting by the suspect while he was holed up in the bathrooms. I heard interviews with some of the victims who were in the bathrooms. One said that the shooter put his gun over the top of the closed bathroom stall and shot into the victims huddled there. Other victims told similar stories of shooting taking place in the bathrooms.
Why didn't the SWAT team go back there and get the perpetrator. I can't believe that they were "talking to him" for three hours and that there was NO shooting during that time. That's just not true!!! I think the police were afraid that there were more shooters and that they had a bomb. Why do they have to lie about the situation!!!
Perhaps they didn't want the hostages to die in friendly fire?
‎06-21-2016 06:48 AM
@truffle wrote:People bled to death that could have been saved if there had been some smart people in swat. Unfortunately, there were not.
Well, since you are an EXPERT on SWAT, why don't you run to Orlando, and tell them EXACTLY HOW to do their job?
I'm sure that they will be forever grateful and endebted to you for your expertise and knowledge of how to do everything exactly right.
‎06-21-2016 07:23 AM
@truffle wrote:People bled to death that could have been saved if there had been some smart people in swat. Unfortunately, there were not.
This is very disrespectful considering you do not have all the relevant facts AND even a SWAT team follows a chain of command. Rushing in without factoring what one might find is reckless and usually results in even more casualties.
‎06-21-2016 08:25 AM
Response time may have been slow but consider that Law Enforcement everywhere is overwhelmed with incidents. If people didn't go around being fools and lawless, there would be more than enough time for law enforcement to respond. All the stories aren't in and that shooter meant to do what he did whether minutes were the issue or hours. It's terrorism plain and simple.
‎06-21-2016 01:39 PM - edited ‎06-21-2016 03:25 PM
Not only is this disrespectful but it is a good example of how folks who do not understand a situation will spread inflammatory and inaccurate information.
First of all, the commander on scene made it quite clear to Anderson Cooper that what the media was initially reporting was incorrect. He explained what took place. The three hours pertained to when they knocked out the wall and took out the gunman. The police were on scene within minutes of learning of the attack and they went right in, as he explained they have been trained to do since Columbine. Those policeman engaged the shooter and even though he had them outgunned, they were able to push him to the back part by the bathrooms. This allowed them to pull out folks from the front part of the building...folks who were either okay or needed medical care. Yes, they saved many lives while risking their own. He said his officers were in the front part of the building the entire time.
Second, you need to understand the difference between an active shooter and a hostage situation. Once they had him pushed back and confined, at some point it became a hostage situation rather than a shooter running around killing folks. As bad as it may sound, someone shooting folks who are basically hostages is not the same as someone on a shooting spree - not from a tactical standpoint. The SOP changes because they don't want those hostages killed because of their actions. This includes negotiation, which took place.
Many of the victims trapped in the bathroom stated quite clearly that they heard the shooter talking about numerous shooters, bombs, suicide vests, etc. He also told some of them he would put suicide vests on them. This information was being relayed to family members and police, who have to take all of this into consideration. During phone calls, which are recorded and documented, he also told police he had bombs in his car that he would detonate and that he had vests as used in Paris. The police are not psychic; they rely on information from the inside. You act like the police knew from the beginning that there was only this one guy with a couple of guns. Given everything they are being told from him AND victims inside, should they just ignore these very real dangers? One suicide vest could take out everyone in the bathroom and then they all would have died. A bomb in a car...gees, there were hundreds of cars in the lot - what car was his and where was it? More than one shooter...if true where were they within the building?
Had they acted different and there actually was a bomb that killed everyone, then folks would be screaming that SWAT was stupid and never should have done what they did knowing what they knew. It may take months if not years before we know all of what took place that night.
They did what they thought best given the information they were being presented in real time, and that's why they are the experts and why we put our faith in them to do what they do. Second guessing them when we were not there and could not possibly know the obstacles with which they were faced is just arrogant and totally disrespectful to not only the police, but to those inside who endured this and did their best to relay information to the outside...information they had every reason to believe was accurate.
And if you think for one minute that these police and SWAT officers don't think about this stuff after it is over, you are wrong. Most have to reconcile it by understanding they did all they could given the situation, but it still haunts them. Think about the officer who was one of the first on the scene, and who went in thinking all these folks he was seeing could be rescued only to realize, as he said, that none of them got up to go with him because they were all dead.
And BTW, every situation regardless of whether it was handled perfectly or not, presents an opportunity to improve on tactics simply because there is no way to practice every possible scenario because they are all different. It is an unfortunate fact of life that our knowledge of how to handle these situations increases with each tragic event.
Calling these folks liars...folks who are willing to risk their lives to save others...as if they have something to gain from this horrific situation, is really offensive and heartless.
‎06-21-2016 02:28 PM
@Puzzle Piece wrote:Response time may have been slow but consider that Law Enforcement everywhere is overwhelmed with incidents. If people didn't go around being fools and lawless, there would be more than enough time for law enforcement to respond. All the stories aren't in and that shooter meant to do what he did whether minutes were the issue or hours. It's terrorism plain and simple.
_______________________________________________________
According to the timeline that has generally been published, shots first started around 1:58 am. There was an armed officer at the scene that tries to take on the shooter, but is out-gunned. He calls for back up. By 2:02am 2 swat officers respond and are on scene.
So I don't see how around 5 minutes, give or take a few minutes, is a slow law enforcement response?
Somewhere around 2:05 am the shooter is forced himself back into the bathroom where people are hiding. He threatens that he has explosives. This now becomes a hostage situation. Law enforcement has no idea if he has explosives, what he may have set up, etc.
In the meantime, police & law enforcement are getting the wounded out. They even call out to the ones on the floor to raise your hand if you are alive. They do drag the wounded out and work to get them transported to the hospital.
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