Community Chat

[Alison Wonderland]

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@Moonlady wrote:
Herd immunity may not have been Sweden's goal. But in the absence of a vaccine, it should be EVERY country's goal.

And keeping people cooped up and masked is NOT how it's acquired. (Viruses and Immunology 101 😉)

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What's your proposal for safely achieving herd immunity without millions of Americans dying?

[RoughDraft]

Some people should not confuse a degree in immunology with a Google search.

[pitdakota]

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@Alison Wonderland wrote:

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@Moonlady wrote:
Herd immunity may not have been Sweden's goal. But in the absence of a vaccine, it should be EVERY country's goal.

And keeping people cooped up and masked is NOT how it's acquired. (Viruses and Immunology 101 😉)

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What's your proposal for safely achieving herd immunity without millions of Americans dying?

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@Alison Wonderland, It's ridiculous.  And I think those that are clammoring for herd immunity may change their mind when they find themself in a hospital fighting for their life.  Maybe they live, but have a stroke that renders them with deficits for the remainder of their life.  Or maybe they have to have a limb amputated due to the clotting disorders that are occuring the COVID-19.  COVID-19 is turning out to be anything but just a respiratory disease.  Let's see heart attacks, strokes, kidney failure, amputations.  And those are occurring in healthy 40 year old individuals.  

And then watch out when those younger ones get the bill for those hospital services that aren't covered by their insurance.  Holy cow!

[suzyQ3]

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@Moonlady wrote:
Herd immunity may not have been Sweden's goal. But in the absence of a vaccine, it should be EVERY country's goal.

And keeping people cooped up and masked is NOT how it's acquired. (Viruses and Immunology 101 😉)

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@Moonlady, do you actually know what you're touting?

You are talking about experimenting with a whole population of people. You are talking about a swath of unimaginable misery and death.

The first thing that pops into my mind is the Nazi overtones of such a horrific experiment.

[Alison Wonderland]

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@pitdakota wrote:

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@Alison Wonderland wrote:

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@Moonlady wrote:
Herd immunity may not have been Sweden's goal. But in the absence of a vaccine, it should be EVERY country's goal.

And keeping people cooped up and masked is NOT how it's acquired. (Viruses and Immunology 101 😉)

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What's your proposal for safely achieving herd immunity without millions of Americans dying?

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@Alison Wonderland, It's ridiculous.  And I think those that are clammoring for herd immunity may change their mind when they find themself in a hospital fighting for their life.  Maybe they live, but have a stroke that renders them with deficits for the remainder of their life.  Or maybe they have to have a limb amputated due to the clotting disorders that are occuring the COVID-19.  COVID-19 is turning out to be anything but just a respiratory disease.  Let's see heart attacks, strokes, kidney failure, amputations.  And those are occurring in healthy 40 year old individuals.  

And then watch out when those younger ones get the bill for those hospital services that aren't covered by their insurance.  Holy cow!

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Agreed. I don't think there's a safe way to achieve herd immunity without a vaccine. 

I see some people say that only old people or compromised people are at risk, which is extremely problematic for many reasons and is also untrue. They're at greater risk, but we're also seeing healthy people die.

I really think we're in such a big mess now in part because the advanced information was that "it only affects old people," which made young people feel invincible. Now they're finding themselves both sick and, as you say, facing huge medical bills, and they're also spreading it all over the place.

If we tried to achieve natural herd immunity without a vaccine, millions of people would suffer and several million would die. That's barbaric to me.

[reiki604]

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@germanshepherdlove wrote:

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Early on we were told masks were only for health care and we had no need to wear one.  I never understood that logic and then when we were told yes, it's a good idea to cover you mouth and nose even if it's just with a bandana.....did our numbers plateau or was that just a coincidence(?)

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Because this was a new virus that no one had ever seen before or had any experience with, it was a learn as you go situation. Sadly the logic you understood was not conducive to the narrative that was proposed and logic was minimized until the facts could no longer be poo-pooed away. Anyone minimal critical thinking skills could figure out for themselves what needed to be done. You should congratulate yourself for having more common sense at the beginning than many have after a couple of months of experience

ETA. In the beginning of the pandemic there were not enough masks or protective equiptment available to our first line hospital workers and they were scrambling for any supplies. Sadly lthe DPA was not implemented at that time and many got the disease due to no protection available.

[ollie5]

Then move to Sweden, bye Felicia!

[violann]

I also have a concern that some of these well thought out and casually stated comments appear to be confusing "death" with something that always happens to someone else, while IN FACT, it is something that SCIENTIFICALLY happens to almost EVERYONE!

Since actual STATISTICS (FACT!) have fluctuated concerning who is, or is NOT in the prime target group for SEVERE SYMPTOMS of COVID19, which may result in the previously "D" SYMPTOM, the Swedish perspective has probably resulted in some unhappy victims of DEATHS, whether suffered by the victim personally or their loved ones.

Personally, I'm not down with the theory of "EXPENDABILITY" when it comes to human life. I have intense sympathy for EVERYONE who has suffered from Sweden's interesting handling of something as serious and complicated and disturbing as what we are living in now, OR OURS. 

The overt hostility pulsing from every aspect of our lives, highest to lowest, the attempts to glorify ignorance and stifle expertise, the gang violence and subversive rhetoric..........

who has benefited?

[Amelia98]

We are headed toward the Swedish model because Americans don't seem to have the fortitude to even wear masks.  So, what this means is that everyone (or their family) is likely to experience this virus.  One mistake and anyone with pre-existing conditions is toast!  Scary, but I guess It's acceptable that some of us will be sacrificed for the economy. If you survive it the hospital bills will be enormous after 3 weeks on a ventilator.

[gardenman]

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@jackiew wrote:

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@gardenman wrote:

Genetics likely play a role also. There's a genetic variation called CCR5 Delta 32 that largely protects those with it from HIV, black plague, and smallpox. It arose in northern Europe somewhere between 700-2250 years ago. There are likely some populations that have greater genetic resistance to this coronavirus than others.

If you trust the numbers we're seeing worldwide, I would think many Indians have a genetic edge. Despite one of the largest population densities, they have just 33,000+ cases of Covid-19. That's about a quarter of the cases we've seen in NJ despite India's population of 1.3 billion compared to NJ's 9 million. They have 144 times as many people as NJ, but a quarter of the cases of Covid-19.

I suspect you'll find that the wildly varying infection and death rates reflect genetic strengths and weaknesses. If a population, say India, got hit with an earlier pandemic of Covid-19, or a closely related virus, it could have killed off the more genetically vulnerable while giving those with genetic resistance an advantage.

You can say Sweden's plan failed, but maybe Swede's are more genetically vulnerable and would have experienced the same outcome regardless of the actions they took. The wildly varying rates of both infection and death we've seen suggest rather strongly that more is going on here. I'm pretty sure we'll find that genetics plays a big role in Covid-19.

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genetics, really?  You want to go there?  Wow

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You might want to do some research before dismissing it.

https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-research/genetics-and-covid-19-severity/ 

https://www.labroots.com/trending/genetics-and-genomics/17262/genetic-factors-influence-severity-cov... 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/27/covid-19-quickly-kills-some-while-others-dont-sho... 

And there are a lot more reports out there on the possible impact of genetics. Some populations seem to be more protected than others. India, despite having 1.3+ billion people, has just 42+ thousand cases of Covid-19. Pretty much every epidemiologist in the world will tell you India will likely be a hotbed in a pandemic due to the population density. They're not a hotbed for Covid-19. Why not? Luck? Maybe. Government action? Maybe. Genetics? Maybe. When we see wildly varying results in relatively closed populations you've got to assume genetics plays some role. Researchers around the world are looking for the answer.