Community Chat

[Lucky Charm]

Great post @gardenman .

[suzyQ3]

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@Mominohio wrote:

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@suzyQ3 wrote:

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@pitdakota wrote:

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@Jersey Born wrote:

Actually, our governor mentioned placing people sick with Covid-19 elsewhere. He actually mentioned it as part of his plan to reopen the state.  Sorry.  I wish it were untrue, but it most certainly is not.

It is embedded in Phase 4.  Anyone can be relocated:

http://d31hzlhk6di2h5.cloudfront.net/20200427/db/2d/77/6c/2a8a498ff2edda855c3f456d/The_Road_Back_-_R...

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_______________________________________________________

This is fear mongering to say the very least.  As a public health person, they don't put sick people  or those testing positive somewhere else just because.  Any good public health plan  worth its salt has a plan to place individuals that are sick with the disease and have no place to isolate in an area at no cost to them in which they are safe and can isolate.  But if you have your own place to isolate, they don't make you go anywhere else.  

There are a number of people that live in multifamily homes that if they test positive or exhibit symptoms, there is no way with the set up in the home along with multiple other individuals in the home where they can really isolate.  There may be elderly or other at risk individuals living in that same home in which it would be very risky for them if the sick individual tries to stay in the home.  There may be no viable option for the at risk individual to go somewhere else while the coronavirus positive person stays in that home and that person has no other place to go in order to quarantine or isolate.

So, in that instance they will provide a place for that person to go where they can isolate.  Doesn't mean they make you go there no matter what to isolate for goodness sake.  And you know, homeless people contract covid-19 too.   They need places to offer people other options if the one they are living in might expose other high risk individuals. 

As a matter of fact, universities that are planning on having students to return to dorms this fall are working out plans to have separate dorms for students that need to isolate or quarantine during the school year if they can't go home.  In some instances, parents may be able to drive to pick up their student and take them home, if they just need to quarantine.  But if that isn't possible or if the family home is not set up for that student to quarantine safely at home, there will be rooms available in a separate dorm for quarantine.  Doesn't mean they are put there like a prison for goodness sake. 

And as far as not going to the grocery store or other retail areas, encounters are rated by public health officials.  Just because you are shopping in a Kroger at the same time someone else was there that tests positive does not mean they are going to track you down and make you quarantine.

Just stop to think about that.  There are grocery stores in every single state that have had employees that tested positive and were working when people were shopping.  When did you hear about a public announcement stating if you shopped in that grocery store at that time that you needed to quarantine only because an employee that worked there tested positive!  They didn't run film and check shopper cards.  They knew who the employee had  "close" contacts with and those people were instructed to quarantine. 

There are different levels of encounters and risks from those certain exposures.  The contact tracers work with public health officials to determine those that had high or significant exposures and those people are then contacted and requested to quarantine.  Just shopping in a grocery store in which someone else there tested positive isn't a signficant risk.  

If someone eating in a certain indoor establishment tests positive, that could be a high risk situation since you are indoors in an enclosed space for a period of time.  They might look back at other customers at that time and ask them to quarantine based on where the sick individual was sitting.  But they look at the certain situation to determine what customers would have had a high risk of an exposure.  Not just that you were there at a certain time when someone else that tested positive was there.

And per the link you provided, it is principle 4, not phase 4 and that would be standard protocol for people that need resources that don't have a suitable area to isolate or quarantine if necessary.  Good public health practice!  

If anyone just stopped to think for a minute, even during the worst of the outbreaks in Calif, Washington state, New York, and New Jersey, they didn't take people that tested positive or exhibited symptoms and remove them from their home.  In fact, they told people to stay at home, isolate or quarantine.  They had empty hotel rooms at the time to put people if they needed them.  But they didn't come remove you on an order if you had a place to isolate or quarantine and place those people anywhere.  That doesn't change with contact tracing.  If you test positive and have an acceptable situation in which to quarantine or isolate, no problem.  If you need a place to go in order to quarantine or isolate, no problem....they will provide it for you and other resources such as food and meals. 

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@pitdakota, a very thorough repsonse, but it's sad to me that it even needed to be said.

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I'm seeing value in both views. I don't really see how anyone at this point in history (if you know history and current events) can say that the 'dark' view of this is not possible. It's what those with an agenda (and they all have one) can and will do at some point especially a government. The 'lighter' view about what hasn't been done, or how difficult it would be to do is reasonable and has merit in past practice. 

The truth of what is/will/can be done lies somewhere in between. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't be or won't be in at least some circumstances in some places. Everything is being pushed to the extreme the last decade or so, why would this be any different, at least in some places and circumstances, if it fits someone's agenda?

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@Mominohio, I don't think that the idea that we can't predict the future was what the poster was saying. She was talking about the present and stating that children could be removed from their homes, which on the face of her comment sounded as if it would be involuntary.

[Jersey Born]

I do not drink and drive, @pitdakota so your malicious statement intended to insult me is sad. I would never stoop so low as to say anything or insinuate anything similar about you.  Nor would I wish for you to be out on the road with a drunk driver on it, considering my friend's son was murdered by a drunk driver in Delaware a few years ago, and I really get how dangerous and destructive that kind of behavior is.  But, that's just me.    

Contact tracing, at least in my state, is going to be done quite a bit differently in the days ahead.  It is not going to be done the way it is presently done.  That truly will be a fact, if my governor has his way, which appears likely. Daily life in my state will not resemble life as it used to be, in the least. The freedom to move about, and enjoy any aspect of life will be diminished greatly, and I hope you can understand that I'm not talking about drinking alcohol and getting drunk in bars, and then driving about on roadways illegally drunk.  'Nuff said about that.

Below, is a look at the Commcare App that was discussed by NJ legislators only yesterday.  It is the app they plan to ask everyone in NJ to use. It is supposedly "voluntary", but when you see what it captures, if people are permitted to refuse it, how will it be useful at all? This app is designed to prevent people from going anywhere or entering any business or store if they have been exposed to a sick person.  Please tell me I am wrong about this.  I would LOVE to be wrong!  Problem is, the app will be used to automatically quarantine everyone exposed to someone sick for 15 minutes or longer at 6 ft away, whether or not they become sick.  This app is about to go live in NJ.  We have been told that it is to be used, and that our governor expects everyone to comply. Am I misrepresenting this, or being alarmist?  This is what we are being told by our governor is going to be our "new normal".  Our governor has stated over and over again that we will not fully reopen NJ until contact tracing, wide-scale testing, and tracking are in place, and he has personally selected this CommCare app to be used to that end.  The app is a tracking app, and its use is going to result in the quarantine of many healthy people who wouldn't be able to infect anyone at all.  Sick people must stay home and quarantine, not the healthy, who should be free to move about and get on with their lives.   

https://confluence.dimagi.com/display/commcarepublic/CommCare+for+COVID-19

https://confluence.dimagi.com/display/commcarepublic/COVID-19+Template+App%3A+WHO+FFX+Protocol

[suzyQ3]

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@gardenman wrote:

Contact tracing in large population centers is pointless. You might as well just tell everyone they've been in contact and to self-isolate. A lot of it is just random also. If you've been in contact with someone for fifteen minutes they're at risk. But not at fourteen minutes and fifty-nine seconds? If you're within six feet of someone they're at risk. But they're safe if they're six feet and a quarter inch away? This is a very clever little virus. It seemingly follows very specific rules. 

One of the big problems we have in this country is politicians feel a  need to "do something." The problem is, what they do seldom achieves anything other than frustrating citizens. 

Contact tracing is one more way for politicians to "do something" but it won't achieve anything. A highly infectious person may infect someone in a fourteen-minute and fifty-nine-second encounter from six feet and one-quarter inch away and the person infected escapes detection by the contact tracer as they weren't with the person for fifteen minutes and within six feet. That newly infected person then spreads the virus to others they encounter and the government wonders how their brilliant system of contact tracing broke down.

Contact tracing can work in very, very rural areas, but in more densely populated areas, it's useless. You might as well just tell everyone they've been exposed. And contact tracing really breaks down for those who had the virus and cleared it and are now (hopefully anyway) immune. If they're now truly immune it doesn't matter if they've had contact with an infected person or not. It doesn't matter who they have contact with as they no longer have the virus and can't get the virus. What right does the government then have to track them and force them to self-isolate for 14 days? It's definitely not a public health issue for them or people they come into contact with if they're immune.

One of the great things about living in NJ is you never ask to ask, "Is there a rule for this?" There are rules for everything. Thankfully no one fully enforces the rules or everyone in NJ would be in jail. For example, tomorrow is trash day here in my neighborhood and I can only put my trash out between six PM tonight and six AM tomorrow. Not earlier and not later. It has to be a certain distance from the road, but not too far, and also a certain distance from adjoining properties. Bags of trash must be of a certain size and weight. Up to twenty pounds per bag is allowed if the bag has a trash sticker on it. The trash stickers cost $1.50 each. If the bag is larger than allowed or holds more than 20 pounds then additional stickers are required. If the trash isn't picked up tomorrow then it has to be removed from curbside by six PM. (Bear in mind that if it isn't picked up it will be picked up the next day and at 6:01 PM you can put it back out for pickup the next day.) Don't even get me started on recycling. The rules for that are ever-evolving and more than a little crazy.

Politicians have to stop "doing something" and focus more on achieving something. Endless rules just get ignored by both the residents and those who are supposed to enforce them. "We can't live in anarchy! We must have rules!" Yeah, but there's a limit to how many rules we truly need. In NJ, we're way, way past the number of rules we need. Contact tracing is pointless and stupid in a state as densely populated as NJ. It just won't work. All it'll do is make those contacted more paranoid than they already are.

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@gardenman, I hate when people don't bring in their empty trash container. There are some people on an adjacent block to us that just leave them out all time. They are not attractive at all and often block the sidewalk.

My point is that I'm glad for most restrictions. I don't want to live in the good ol' Wild West.

[CelticCrafter]

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@Jersey Born wrote:

I do not drink and drive, @pitdakota so your malicious statement intended to insult me is sad. I would never stoop so low as to say anything or insinuate anything similar about you.  Nor would I wish for you to be out on the road with a drunk driver on it, considering my friend's son was murdered by a drunk driver in Delaware a few years ago, and I really get how dangerous and destructive that kind of behavior is.  But, that's just me.    

Contact tracing, at least in my state, is going to be done quite a bit differently in the days ahead.  It is not going to be done the way it is presently done.  That truly will be a fact, if my governor has his way, which appears likely. Daily life in my state will not resemble life as it used to be, in the least. The freedom to move about, and enjoy any aspect of life will be diminished greatly, and I hope you can understand that I'm not talking about drinking alcohol and getting drunk in bars, and then driving about on roadways illegally drunk.  'Nuff said about that.

Below, is a look at the Commcare App that was discussed by NJ legislators only yesterday.  It is the app they plan to ask everyone in NJ to use. It is supposedly "voluntary", but when you see what it captures, if people are permitted to refuse it, how will it be useful at all? This app is designed to prevent people from going anywhere or entering any business or store if they have been exposed to a sick person.  Please tell me I am wrong about this.  I would LOVE to be wrong!  Problem is, the app will be used to automatically quarantine everyone exposed to someone sick for 15 minutes or longer at 6 ft away, whether or not they become sick.  This app is about to go live in NJ.  We have been told that it is to be used, and that our governor expects everyone to comply. Am I misrepresenting this, or being alarmist?  This is what we are being told by our governor is going to be our "new normal".  Our governor has stated over and over again that we will not fully reopen NJ until contact tracing, wide-scale testing, and tracking are in place, and he has personally selected this CommCare app to be used to that end.  The app is a tracking app, and its use is going to result in the quarantine of many healthy people who wouldn't be able to infect anyone at all.  Sick people must stay home and quarantine, not the healthy, who should be free to move about and get on with their lives.   

https://confluence.dimagi.com/display/commcarepublic/CommCare+for+COVID-19

https://confluence.dimagi.com/display/commcarepublic/COVID-19+Template+App%3A+WHO+FFX+Protocol

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If he thinks he's going to tell people they have to comply, people will turn their phones off and leave them home, in a drawer and go back to having a land line and not be walking around 24/7 with a phone in their hand.  I'd have no problem ditching my cell phone.

[pitdakota]

@Jersey Born, I have now read at least 3 different articles that states New Jersey only now has around 400 contact tracers in place with a goal to have "up to" 4,000 in place by August.  I believe you specifically stated 7,000 tracers.  For the population size of New Jersey, I would think 4,000 is an appropriate amount.

Also all of those articles including one from NJBiz specifically states the CommCare app will be used for public health officials to store their data.  There has to be some type of computer system up to par for contact tracers to know where viral activity is more robust and areas where things are stable.   The articles all specifically state the app will not be used GPS data from cell phones for digital alert status or exposure notification. 

However, currently it is stated in every article I have read that the state does not intend to use that feature.  So while I can see that some may be concerned, it is not mandatory to sign up for the app.  So if you don't want to, don't. Simple.  

  But stating about how they are going to track your every move to make sure you don't move anywhere you are not supposed to go is hyperbole.  And 7,000 contact tracers couldn't track that way for every citizens in New Jersey if they tried.  That wouldn't be enough manpower.  Plus they have no clue who is supposed to be where anyway.   

This just gets ridiculous. Their goal is to get on any identified case, isolate that individual and prevent any large outbreak of disease.  Period.  As the economy reopens and businesses start back, people start going back to work it helps for them to know where they have the greatest concentration of potential patients.  For example, some people will be working but have been put in positions where they are assigned to work remotely from home.  So that big office that used to have 4,000 employees working there is not accurate data  which is important for public health officials when evaluating a potential outbreak.  For those that voluntarily download the app and if they do become sick, the tracers can store the ongoing information about temperature, presence of cough, or absence of symptoms which is all done digitally via the phone and stored.  That cuts down tremendously on the manpower of the contact tracers to make contact with each individual in a quarantine or isolation system and then them having to physically enter the information into some type of a computer system. However, if people are concerned about their privacy they don't have to download the app. 

For the record, I don't drink and drive.  In fact, I hardly drink at all.  Can't stand the taste of most of the stuff.  You totally missed the point.  But you made the point in your response.  Drinking and driving puts others in danger so there are certain laws and incentives to discourage drinking and driving.  But not caring about exposing others to covid is also something that places other innocent individuals in danger as well.  So doing things that protects others from those that are irresponsible is a responsibility than can result in someone being fined or having an ankle monitor placed.  Those were the examples you cited in your post specifically.  So all those examples of listing what Kentucky did, Hawaii etc. are examples of what state officials had to resort to in order to protect other innocent people when those individals left them no choice.  No different than drunk driving laws.  That law serves to protect innocent people.  So does placing an ankle monitor on someone that is positive for coronavirus and experiencing symptoms such as a cough and still going to work to expose others when you know you are sick.   

I wish the best for the state of New Jersey in reopening.  It is one of the last states to reopen since New York and New Jersey were hit so hard.  The residents of New Jersey should be glad they worked so hard to get the situation under control.  It takes quite a bit of effort from state officicials, public health individuals, health care professionals, and every day citizens to deal with the numbers of covid New Jersey had. Have a good evening. 

[pitdakota]

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@suzyQ3 wrote:

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@Mominohio wrote:

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@suzyQ3 wrote:

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@pitdakota wrote:

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@Jersey Born wrote:

Actually, our governor mentioned placing people sick with Covid-19 elsewhere. He actually mentioned it as part of his plan to reopen the state.  Sorry.  I wish it were untrue, but it most certainly is not.

It is embedded in Phase 4.  Anyone can be relocated:

http://d31hzlhk6di2h5.cloudfront.net/20200427/db/2d/77/6c/2a8a498ff2edda855c3f456d/The_Road_Back_-_R...

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_______________________________________________________

This is fear mongering to say the very least.  As a public health person, they don't put sick people  or those testing positive somewhere else just because.  Any good public health plan  worth its salt has a plan to place individuals that are sick with the disease and have no place to isolate in an area at no cost to them in which they are safe and can isolate.  But if you have your own place to isolate, they don't make you go anywhere else.  

There are a number of people that live in multifamily homes that if they test positive or exhibit symptoms, there is no way with the set up in the home along with multiple other individuals in the home where they can really isolate.  There may be elderly or other at risk individuals living in that same home in which it would be very risky for them if the sick individual tries to stay in the home.  There may be no viable option for the at risk individual to go somewhere else while the coronavirus positive person stays in that home and that person has no other place to go in order to quarantine or isolate.

So, in that instance they will provide a place for that person to go where they can isolate.  Doesn't mean they make you go there no matter what to isolate for goodness sake.  And you know, homeless people contract covid-19 too.   They need places to offer people other options if the one they are living in might expose other high risk individuals. 

As a matter of fact, universities that are planning on having students to return to dorms this fall are working out plans to have separate dorms for students that need to isolate or quarantine during the school year if they can't go home.  In some instances, parents may be able to drive to pick up their student and take them home, if they just need to quarantine.  But if that isn't possible or if the family home is not set up for that student to quarantine safely at home, there will be rooms available in a separate dorm for quarantine.  Doesn't mean they are put there like a prison for goodness sake. 

And as far as not going to the grocery store or other retail areas, encounters are rated by public health officials.  Just because you are shopping in a Kroger at the same time someone else was there that tests positive does not mean they are going to track you down and make you quarantine.

Just stop to think about that.  There are grocery stores in every single state that have had employees that tested positive and were working when people were shopping.  When did you hear about a public announcement stating if you shopped in that grocery store at that time that you needed to quarantine only because an employee that worked there tested positive!  They didn't run film and check shopper cards.  They knew who the employee had  "close" contacts with and those people were instructed to quarantine. 

There are different levels of encounters and risks from those certain exposures.  The contact tracers work with public health officials to determine those that had high or significant exposures and those people are then contacted and requested to quarantine.  Just shopping in a grocery store in which someone else there tested positive isn't a signficant risk.  

If someone eating in a certain indoor establishment tests positive, that could be a high risk situation since you are indoors in an enclosed space for a period of time.  They might look back at other customers at that time and ask them to quarantine based on where the sick individual was sitting.  But they look at the certain situation to determine what customers would have had a high risk of an exposure.  Not just that you were there at a certain time when someone else that tested positive was there.

And per the link you provided, it is principle 4, not phase 4 and that would be standard protocol for people that need resources that don't have a suitable area to isolate or quarantine if necessary.  Good public health practice!  

If anyone just stopped to think for a minute, even during the worst of the outbreaks in Calif, Washington state, New York, and New Jersey, they didn't take people that tested positive or exhibited symptoms and remove them from their home.  In fact, they told people to stay at home, isolate or quarantine.  They had empty hotel rooms at the time to put people if they needed them.  But they didn't come remove you on an order if you had a place to isolate or quarantine and place those people anywhere.  That doesn't change with contact tracing.  If you test positive and have an acceptable situation in which to quarantine or isolate, no problem.  If you need a place to go in order to quarantine or isolate, no problem....they will provide it for you and other resources such as food and meals. 

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@pitdakota, a very thorough repsonse, but it's sad to me that it even needed to be said.

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I'm seeing value in both views. I don't really see how anyone at this point in history (if you know history and current events) can say that the 'dark' view of this is not possible. It's what those with an agenda (and they all have one) can and will do at some point especially a government. The 'lighter' view about what hasn't been done, or how difficult it would be to do is reasonable and has merit in past practice. 

The truth of what is/will/can be done lies somewhere in between. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't be or won't be in at least some circumstances in some places. Everything is being pushed to the extreme the last decade or so, why would this be any different, at least in some places and circumstances, if it fits someone's agenda?

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@Mominohio, I don't think that the idea that we can't predict the future was what the poster was saying. She was talking about the present and stating that children could be removed from their homes, which on the face of her comment sounded as if it would be involuntary.

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@suzyQ3, exactly.  

[KarenQVC]

On the basis of this thread, I totally pity anyone from the state who is trying to help people get through this crisis in the best health possible.

I think I can assure the conspiracy people that they are not all that important that anyone will waste the resources to fulfill their fantasies.  They will just get an "F" for foxy person next to their name and they will be left alone.

As for that garbage can person, however, I would go out of my way to report you to Code Enforcement.

[Snoopp]

NJ is hiring about 5000 contact tracers.  Privacy is "ensured" by Gov. Murphy, however, we all know that keeping private information private often fails.  It looks pretty vague right now on exactly what information they will ask of you.  They are acting cagey on that.

[gardenman]

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@Snoopp wrote:

NJ is hiring about 5000 contact tracers.  Privacy is "ensured" by Gov. Murphy, however, we all know that keeping private information private often fails.  It looks pretty vague right now on exactly what information they will ask of you.  They are acting cagey on that.

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Ensuring privacy is going to be a challenge since those doing the contact tracing will be individuals working from home. By the very definition of their job they'll be given or determine the names of people an infected person has been in contact with. Murphy has said he wants the tracers to be people from that same community. People tend to gossip and if they learn that a named person in the community is spending his/her lunch hours at a local motel with someone who's not their spouse, or frequently visits a known drug dealer, or something of the sort, the breakdown in privacy could occur pretty quickly.

There was a federal case some years ago where the FBI maintained surveillance on someone long after their warrant had expired and even published an in-house newsletter with the most recent goings-on simply because the person's life was like a soap opera. It might have been one of the Philly mobsters? It became a form of entertainment for them with each new shift anxiously awaiting to see what had happened since their last shift. I could see contact tracing being abused in a similar fashion given that humans will be doing the contact tracing and will have access to a lot of personal information of people within their community.