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Registered: ‎07-12-2010

Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order


@Jersey Born wrote:

It is going to be horrendous.  A contact tracer (someone trained to do this) is going to make a phone call to you, if you become ill and test positive for Covid-19.  You will be questioned by the tracer about everyone you have been in contact with, and they will have access to your online media accounts, and be able to access bluetooth, GPS data, etc. to question you further.  Then, those you mention to the tracer (or people they can determine you were near from your, and their, phone's data) will be contacted and told to self-isolate.  It will be an exponential explosion of people who must self-isolate for 14 days.  Support services will be offered.  Children will be removed from their parent's custody and homes, to who knows where, if there are not enough bathrooms (or perhaps even bedrooms) for all family members to use separately in their home. Everyone is going to feel that their privacy has been taken from them and that they are not free to associate with anyone.

 

People will find ways around this tracking.  Some people will deny they visited anyone.  Some will leave their cellphone at home.  I do not believe that the tracking will be voluntary.  I believe officials and employers will insist the tracking app be on your phone in order for you to be permitted to return to work, or go on a bus, or a train, or a plane, etc. It is all going to be a hot, painful mess. How is a business to remain open, upon reopening, if everyone working there is repeatedly quarantined, even when they are not sick, but merely exposed to someone who is sick?  How is this sustainable without a further crash in the economy?  How are people to be expected to have the money to buy food, pay their mortgage, pay for insurance of any kind, or even pay for their phone bill?  The sick joke is on all of us.


Time to get rid of your cell phones... don't answer calls if you can't identify the number...stop texting and sending e-mails.... don't get tested, unless you have symptoms or it's mandatory at work... keep wearing your masks and stay apart from people when out in public...NO ONE will be allowed to deliberately track me, If I can help it.... I have a right to my privacy...You are right, the sick joke has been on all of us...Time to get out and live what life we have left to the fullest....

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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order

And then there are the electronic toll devices, which some seem fine with 😂

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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order

@pitdakota I never said people were going to be placed in isolation in prison, or that people in a supermarket were going to be asked to isolate for anything less than a 15 minute close encounter, so please stop misrepresenting my statements.  

 

The irony is that in multiple states, genuinely Covid-19 infected people were placed into nursing homes where the most vulnerable elderly and disabled people were.  This happened in reality. Clearly, it was not in the public's best interest to do this. Killing thousands of innocent people due to this "public health" policy due to absolutely insane executive orders from multiple governors was not reasonable, and it begs the question, if we feel it is fine as a matter of public policy to place Covid-19 infected people among the vulnerable elderly in the very nursing homes where they live, why must the rest of us quarantine at all? 

 

Contact tracing is just being ramped up right now with the use of apps that track people.    I feel very sorry for anyone who must take public transportation to work as they will be crammed in with others, likely for more than 15 minutes, and every person they spend more than 15 minutes of time with in close proximity will also be quarantined for 14 days. I also feel badly for those who live in apartments and small homes with only one bathroom shared with mulitple family members. No one should have to be removed to another location, unless they consent to being moved elsewhere. As far as I know, thus far, children have not been removed from their parents, but I saw a NJ document asking NJ parents to select alternative people to place their children with should they become ill, so I am not fear mongering when I state that children are indeed going to be placed elsewhere in the days ahead, if they do not complete this form:

https://www.nj.gov/dcf/news/press/2020/approved/200409_covid19poa.html

 

Here's a great article about how contact tracing will work, and mind you, this level of contact tracing is going to be implemented in the near future.  This intrusive level of contact tracing using apps, GPS tracking, and bluetooth is not up and running quite yet.  It is true that people have not been quarantined and relocated to a major degree-- as of yet -- but that does not mean that it is not being geared up to happen in the days ahead.  People are being trained to be contact tracers right now.  We haven't been given instructions on what apps to download onto our phones yet.  There has not yet been the big PR push on the public.  Contact tracing is about to be placed on steroids with fines and criminal penalties.  The fun has yet to begin.  Johns Hopkins and Rutgers University are involved in it.  

 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/covid-19-contact-tracker-training-telling-people-to-quarantine-ma...

 

From the article above, "Enforcement is not a hypothetical threat. Washington State Governor Jay Inslee has already indicated that people who refuse to cooperate with contact trackers or refuse COVID-19 testing won’t be allowed to leave their homes.

And if they don’t do so voluntarily, Inslee said they will face sanctions in either civil or criminal court. Moreover, if government officials pursue quarantine or isolation via court order, individuals face fines of up to $2,000 per day."

 

"Kentucky residents who refuse to quarantine themselves have been outfitted with ankle bracelets, identical to those criminals must wear who are confined to house arrest.  

When social distancing and quarantine rules were first implemented in late March, states exerted muscle to enforce their new regulations, mostly established by the governor’s executive order:

  • Maryland and Hawaii residents were subject to up to one year in jail and up to a $5,000 fine; 
  • Texas residents could be fined up to $1,000 and up to 180 days in prison.
  • Alaskans could face one year in jail and be fined up to $25,000.  
  • Canada has threatened its residents who violate the Quarantine Act with up to a whopping $750,000 fine in addition to jail time. 

Washington State already has more than 1,000 contact tracers in place; New York plans to hire 17,000; California aims to hire 20,000. "

 

"What if you are one of the people who had been tagged as having been on a bus with an infected person, and after having emerged from 14 days of quarantine and having gone back to your job, were notified that someone in your office has come down with COVID-19?  You would have to go right back into 14 days of quarantine.  

The pattern could be repeated time after time after time, essentially trapping you in perpetual quarantine.  It wouldn’t be voluntary:  It would be mandatory, enforced by health officials and law enforcement.  And if you refused to comply, you could be subject to onerous fines and prison."  

 

This is not the future I envisioned for my family or for me.  If talking about what is in the works for all of us is "fear mongering", then we should all be very concerned and afraid.  I am afraid of the impending loss of my ability to walk around and freely and happily associate with others.  Those who became ill and recovered already are the lucky ones.  Once contact tracing goes live, our lives are going to change dramatically, and not for the better.  The way we have been treated up until now is going to bear no resemblance to the way we are about to be treated-- like farm animals. Meanwhile, the lies declaring there is a lack of medical treatment therapeutics for Covid-19 patients continue. For me, that huge lie we are told every single day in the media is the worst kind of fearmongering. https://covid19criticalcare.com/treatment-protocol/

 

 

  

 

 

 

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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order


@Jersey Born wrote:

Actually, our governor mentioned placing people sick with Covid-19 elsewhere. He actually mentioned it as part of his plan to reopen the state.  Sorry.  I wish it were untrue, but it most certainly is not.

 

It is embedded in Phase 4.  Anyone can be relocated:

http://d31hzlhk6di2h5.cloudfront.net/20200427/db/2d/77/6c/2a8a498ff2edda855c3f456d/The_Road_Back_-_R...

 

 


That's NOT WHAT IT SAYS.  

 

Who knows if that link is even a reliable source of information but what it says is provide a safe place to quarantine.  No where does it say they will drag you kicking and screaming to some unknown location.

 

You're too much.

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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order


@suzyQ3 wrote:

@pitdakota wrote:

@Jersey Born wrote:

Actually, our governor mentioned placing people sick with Covid-19 elsewhere. He actually mentioned it as part of his plan to reopen the state.  Sorry.  I wish it were untrue, but it most certainly is not.

 

It is embedded in Phase 4.  Anyone can be relocated:

http://d31hzlhk6di2h5.cloudfront.net/20200427/db/2d/77/6c/2a8a498ff2edda855c3f456d/The_Road_Back_-_R...

 

 


_______________________________________________________

 

This is fear mongering to say the very least.  As a public health person, they don't put sick people  or those testing positive somewhere else just because.  Any good public health plan  worth its salt has a plan to place individuals that are sick with the disease and have no place to isolate in an area at no cost to them in which they are safe and can isolate.  But if you have your own place to isolate, they don't make you go anywhere else.  

 

There are a number of people that live in multifamily homes that if they test positive or exhibit symptoms, there is no way with the set up in the home along with multiple other individuals in the home where they can really isolate.  There may be elderly or other at risk individuals living in that same home in which it would be very risky for them if the sick individual tries to stay in the home.  There may be no viable option for the at risk individual to go somewhere else while the coronavirus positive person stays in that home and that person has no other place to go in order to quarantine or isolate.

 

So, in that instance they will provide a place for that person to go where they can isolate.  Doesn't mean they make you go there no matter what to isolate for goodness sake.  And you know, homeless people contract covid-19 too.   They need places to offer people other options if the one they are living in might expose other high risk individuals. 

 

As a matter of fact, universities that are planning on having students to return to dorms this fall are working out plans to have separate dorms for students that need to isolate or quarantine during the school year if they can't go home.  In some instances, parents may be able to drive to pick up their student and take them home, if they just need to quarantine.  But if that isn't possible or if the family home is not set up for that student to quarantine safely at home, there will be rooms available in a separate dorm for quarantine.  Doesn't mean they are put there like a prison for goodness sake. 

 

And as far as not going to the grocery store or other retail areas, encounters are rated by public health officials.  Just because you are shopping in a Kroger at the same time someone else was there that tests positive does not mean they are going to track you down and make you quarantine.

 

Just stop to think about that.  There are grocery stores in every single state that have had employees that tested positive and were working when people were shopping.  When did you hear about a public announcement stating if you shopped in that grocery store at that time that you needed to quarantine only because an employee that worked there tested positive!  They didn't run film and check shopper cards.  They knew who the employee had  "close" contacts with and those people were instructed to quarantine. 

 

There are different levels of encounters and risks from those certain exposures.  The contact tracers work with public health officials to determine those that had high or significant exposures and those people are then contacted and requested to quarantine.  Just shopping in a grocery store in which someone else there tested positive isn't a signficant risk.  

 

If someone eating in a certain indoor establishment tests positive, that could be a high risk situation since you are indoors in an enclosed space for a period of time.  They might look back at other customers at that time and ask them to quarantine based on where the sick individual was sitting.  But they look at the certain situation to determine what customers would have had a high risk of an exposure.  Not just that you were there at a certain time when someone else that tested positive was there.

 

And per the link you provided, it is principle 4, not phase 4 and that would be standard protocol for people that need resources that don't have a suitable area to isolate or quarantine if necessary.  Good public health practice!  

 

If anyone just stopped to think for a minute, even during the worst of the outbreaks in Calif, Washington state, New York, and New Jersey, they didn't take people that tested positive or exhibited symptoms and remove them from their home.  In fact, they told people to stay at home, isolate or quarantine.  They had empty hotel rooms at the time to put people if they needed them.  But they didn't come remove you on an order if you had a place to isolate or quarantine and place those people anywhere.  That doesn't change with contact tracing.  If you test positive and have an acceptable situation in which to quarantine or isolate, no problem.  If you need a place to go in order to quarantine or isolate, no problem....they will provide it for you and other resources such as food and meals. 

 

 

 


@pitdakota, a very thorough repsonse, but it's sad to me that it even needed to be said.


 

 

I'm seeing value in both views. I don't really see how anyone at this point in history (if you know history and current events) can say that the 'dark' view of this is not possible. It's what those with an agenda (and they all have one) can and will do at some point especially a government. The 'lighter' view about what hasn't been done, or how difficult it would be to do is reasonable and has merit in past practice. 

 

The truth of what is/will/can be done lies somewhere in between. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't be or won't be in at least some circumstances in some places. Everything is being pushed to the extreme the last decade or so, why would this be any different, at least in some places and circumstances, if it fits someone's agenda?

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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order

"No where does it say they will drag you kicking and screaming to some unknown location.

 

You're too much."

 

Where did I ever write the above statement? I didn't even imply it.  You are dramatically overstating what I wrote.  Some people will be placed elsewhere.  That's a fact. 

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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order

@Still Raining That is true.  

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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order


@Jersey Born wrote:

"No where does it say they will drag you kicking and screaming to some unknown location.

 

You're too much."

 

Where did I ever write the above statement? I didn't even imply it.  You are dramatically overstating what I wrote.  Some people will be placed elsewhere.  That's a fact. 


By who? Where does it say they will "be placed elsewhere"?

 

It states and I quote "to the greatest extent possible, provide individuals who do test positive in the future with a safe and free place to isolate and protect others from Covid 19"

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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order

Contact tracing in large population centers is pointless. You might as well just tell everyone they've been in contact and to self-isolate. A lot of it is just random also. If you've been in contact with someone for fifteen minutes they're at risk. But not at fourteen minutes and fifty-nine seconds? If you're within six feet of someone they're at risk. But they're safe if they're six feet and a quarter inch away? This is a very clever little virus. It seemingly follows very specific rules. 

 

One of the big problems we have in this country is politicians feel a  need to "do something." The problem is, what they do seldom achieves anything other than frustrating citizens. 

 

Contact tracing is one more way for politicians to "do something" but it won't achieve anything. A highly infectious person may infect someone in a fourteen-minute and fifty-nine-second encounter from six feet and one-quarter inch away and the person infected escapes detection by the contact tracer as they weren't with the person for fifteen minutes and within six feet. That newly infected person then spreads the virus to others they encounter and the government wonders how their brilliant system of contact tracing broke down.

 

Contact tracing can work in very, very rural areas, but in more densely populated areas, it's useless. You might as well just tell everyone they've been exposed. And contact tracing really breaks down for those who had the virus and cleared it and are now (hopefully anyway) immune. If they're now truly immune it doesn't matter if they've had contact with an infected person or not. It doesn't matter who they have contact with as they no longer have the virus and can't get the virus. What right does the government then have to track them and force them to self-isolate for 14 days? It's definitely not a public health issue for them or people they come into contact with if they're immune.

 

One of the great things about living in NJ is you never ask to ask, "Is there a rule for this?" There are rules for everything. Thankfully no one fully enforces the rules or everyone in NJ would be in jail. For example, tomorrow is trash day here in my neighborhood and I can only put my trash out between six PM tonight and six AM tomorrow. Not earlier and not later. It has to be a certain distance from the road, but not too far, and also a certain distance from adjoining properties. Bags of trash must be of a certain size and weight. Up to twenty pounds per bag is allowed if the bag has a trash sticker on it. The trash stickers cost $1.50 each. If the bag is larger than allowed or holds more than 20 pounds then additional stickers are required. If the trash isn't picked up tomorrow then it has to be removed from curbside by six PM. (Bear in mind that if it isn't picked up it will be picked up the next day and at 6:01 PM you can put it back out for pickup the next day.) Don't even get me started on recycling. The rules for that are ever-evolving and more than a little crazy.

 

Politicians have to stop "doing something" and focus more on achieving something. Endless rules just get ignored by both the residents and those who are supposed to enforce them. "We can't live in anarchy! We must have rules!" Yeah, but there's a limit to how many rules we truly need. In NJ, we're way, way past the number of rules we need. Contact tracing is pointless and stupid in a state as densely populated as NJ. It just won't work. All it'll do is make those contacted more paranoid than they already are.

Fly!!! Eagles!!! Fly!!!
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Re: NJ Governor Lifted Stay At Home Order

@Jersey Born

 

First of all, I didn't put words in your mouth.  The term prison was my term, never said it was yours.

 

In terms of your link about placement of children....of course they need to do something in the case a single parent has young children and becomes seriously ill or hospitalized and can't care for those children.  Without that language the state has no authority to provide temporary guardianship and to provide monetary resources for the children for food, clothing, etc.  while the parent is in the hospital.

 

We had a situation like that in my area.  There was a nurse that had just moved her in Dec that had a 6 or 7 year old son.  She contracted covid-19 from taking care of patients and had to be hospitalized herself.  She didn't know anyone here well enough to trust them with her child.  Parents were several states away, but unable to travel by car and of course could not fly due to the shutdown.

 

So the governor issued an emergency order similar to the one you provided a link for.  In that case it was actual the social worker herself that too the little boy in and provided care when his Mom was in the hospital.  Once Mom was released from the hospital the little boy was returned.  In fact, he was there to meet his Mom and a friend the nurse worked with took them both home.

 

Guess they could just haul Mom off to the hospital and let preschool children that don't have anyone else to care for them alone and let them fend for themselves. 

 

As for GPS tracking, that is more hyperbole than fact.  No state has mandated that residents download any app.  Not to mention a state would need the entire military to monitor residents by an app the way you seem to be implying that they would monitor every move of all residents.

 

I am very familiar with the situation in Kentucky since that is where I live.  It applied to a whopping total of 3 people.  One was a young nursing assistant that tested postive and was sick.  She was employed in a very large long term care-assisted living facility and did not report her positive status to her employer.  This was early March and she was tested outside her work and just didn't report it, but continued to go to work.  She was fired and public health officials told her to isolate.  She refused to isolate and continued going out to see friends, etc.  It was her Mom that reported her.  So an ankle bracelet took care of that problem.  She ended up being responsible for an extraoridnary number of cases and 14 deaths in that facility.  Didn't bother her any though.

 

A second person was a a guy that tested positive and had symptoms.  He continued to report to work in his "essential" position.  Infected a couple of other coworkers and refused to isolate.

 

All 3 of those situations took place in March and early April while cases were increasing.  None of them have occurred during the reopening phase or with any contact tracing.  

 

You are free to feel however you choose to feel.  You are the only one responsible for yourself.  But much of what you have posted is misguided,  misrepresented to portray a situation that is not accurate or in many cases just flat not true.  

 

I do take issue that you state it as fact, not as what it is what you think or what you might be afraid of, but fact.  And has been seen here, much of it isn't fact.

 

You fail to recognize that there are multiple states that have been in the reopening phase since May and they have been doing contact tracing during that time.  So they are well ahead of you in where you are as your state reopens. 

 

It really is simple.  If you test positive for the virus, you are a threat to the health and safety of others.  If people in this country reject common sense measures to try and contain the spread from infected individuals then they should also do away with drunk driving laws.

 

After all, it is legal in most areas to drink alcohol.  So have at it.  Go out and drink to your heart's desire.  If people are afraid of you driving home drunk, they can stay home and stay off the road.  And after all, that is over reacting don't you know.  Just because you drink and drive doesn't mean you are going to have an accident or kill someone.  People drive home drunk all the time successfully without anyone knowing.  So it is others' problems, and if you don't want you or your loved ones jeopardized....just stay home and stay off the roads.  Can't infringe on my rights as a citizen to go out and drink and have a good time if I want to drive myself home.

 

And by the way, contact tracing is very effective.  Done by public health departments all the time for many different contagious diseases.  People might be very suprised at the number of potential syphilis cases if they didn't do contact tracing in public health departments all across the country.  


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