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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?

[ Edited ]

@blahblahvampemerblah wrote:

Great article in the WSJ about trophy hunting saving the lions because it can destroy the market for poachers.  It also helps control the damage lions do to livestock populations.  Tons of info in there.

 

John Stossel has always spoken about saving tigers the same way bison were saved--by inserting the profit motive.  


That is a disturbing opinion piece (not an article) by someone who doesn't seem to grasp that there are preferable ways to help a nation's economy than by allowing its natural fauna to be decimated.  

No mention is made of tourism bringing in dollars, by tourists who wish to see LIVE animals.  No mention is made that these tourist dollars could help support wild animal reserves and the manpower to help protect them.  And faulty reasoning is shown when he says only hunting dollars bring revenue to pay for the reserves.  A limited mind offering a limited viewpoint with zero solutions other than his own mindset.

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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?


@italia8140 wrote:

@SydneyH wrote:

No it is not, not even close imo............


 If you READ and COMPREHEND the definition, it CERTAINLY is.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with my reading or comprehension, it is ALLOWED to have a differing opinion or response to OP's question.  I'll add that many are completely unaware that the leader of that country has been on too many hunting expeditions to count so it's unlikely anything will change there......

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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?

No.

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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?

[ Edited ]

I"d like to comment on a few recent remarks: What 'this Cecil the lion thing' is is the slaughter of an animal, luring him out of a safe place, shooting him with an arrow, causing him to suffer 2 days before finally managing to kill him, cutting off his head and feet, skinning him, and trying to destroy his GPS tracking collar, to cover up evidence of the actions. To me that is an outrage.

 

'it's good to even get a little upset about animals being mistreated.' It's not like this lion got a spanking. Senseless killing, (of any animal, and yes, people are animals) makes me angry.

 

"TV shows like ......... does (sic) prove that sometimes, people can take their love of animals a bit too far at times. I believe thinking people deserve more credit than to think we develop our ethical beliefs, or model our behavior based on pop culture TV shows. Sure hope I'm not wrong.

 

That said, I hope we can get back to the original question @Homegirl raised.  Is Cecil a tipping point? I came across this article a few days ago, but hesitated to post it because it is a little long. However, I think some people will appreciate a response to this question directly from an interview with one of the scientists who were studying Cecil. The information about the Wildcru Long Shield project and how it plays into the local economy is particularly interesting.

 

SCIENCEINSIDER

Breaking news and analysis from the world of science policy.


For one lion researcher, Cecil’s death spurs outpouring of support

 

By Kai Kupferschmidt 31 July 2015 12:00 pm

 

The death of Cecil the lion, a particularly photogenic male cat in Zimbabwe's Hwange National Park, has sparked international outrage. Cecil was lured out of the reserve in early July by hunting guides, and then shot with an arrow by Walter Palmer, a trophy hunter and dentist from Minnesota. Palmer reportedly paid more than $50,000 for the opportunity. U.S. and Zimbabwean officials are now seeking to question Palmer, who has dropped out of sight.

 

For one researcher, however, Cecil’s death may have a silver lining. David Macdonald is part of a team of scientists at the University of Oxford’s Wildlife Research Conservation Unit in the United Kingdom that was studying Cecil. They have been tracking the movements of more than 200 lions with satellites to better understand the animals' behavior. After Jimmy Kimmel, a popular U.S. TV host, made an emotional plea for lion conservation on his show on 28 July, donations started pouring in to Macdonald’s program. Since Kimmel’s appeal, the research unit has received some $500,000 in donations.

 

ScienceInsider spoke with Macdonald about his work and Cecil. This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.

 

Q: What was your reaction when you heard of the death of this lion?
A: As a conservation biologist, it is my day-to-day work to find animals that I'm working on suffering gruesome deaths. So I am familiar with that and I seek, if possible, to make the best of it by using the information to build a stronger scientific case. On the other hand, I’m a conservation biologist because I care about wildlife. And as I have studied [Cecil] for years, and know it individually and have taken great joy watching it at close quarters, I was saddened at the thought of its death. And because it appears in this case that at least some of the actors in this were behaving illegally, one is not only saddened but enraged.
There is a third perspective: This is an example of the day-to-day reality of conservation biology trying to find ways of people and wildlife living together. Across the whole continent of Africa, lion conservation is largely in crisis. It’s a very important but also very challenging issue [of] aligning the needs of biodiversity conservation with the needs of human and community development.

 

Q: Cecil was wearing a GPS collar. What do you use that for in your research?
A: We have a system where as a lion starts to leave the park and go into the farming areas, where it may kill livestock and be a threat to people, the satellite informs my staff member in headquarters in the park. We have trained and recruited a series of very democratically chosen local people, called the Wildcru Long Shields. Each Long Shield is provided with a mountain bike, a GPS tracker, and a cellphone. As our person in the park sees a lion head toward a particular farming area, he phones the local Long Shield on the cellphone, who then uses the GPS to go to the place where the lion is. [The Long Shield] uses a vuvuzela, you know one of these trumpets, to frighten the lion back into the park. Last year we believe we have cut by 80% the loss of domestic stock by this method.

 

Q: Jimmy Kimmel urged viewers to support your research …
A: I admire what he did greatly. He has catalyzed a wonderful action. Our project relies entirely on philanthropic gifts. Every time we fit a satellite tracking collar to a lion, it costs us £1500 ($2350). Every year for each lion it costs us £500 ($780) to download the satellite data. Every time we have people going into the field, they have to drive a four-wheel-drive vehicle. To run this particular project, excluding the senior staff salaries, is going to cost us between £150,000 and £200,000 ($234,000 and $312,000) next year. We had no idea how we were going to pay for that.

 

Q: Has the appeal raised enough money?

A: At the moment it is close to half a million dollars. Hopefully it means we will be able to expand the project from Zimbabwe into adjoining areas in Botswana and Zambia. [That would make] it a landscape-scale project, rather than just in one national park. We have also been engaged in a program that I'm very proud of, where we have been finding aspiring young Zimbabweans and training them as conservation biologists, in some cases giving them scholarships to come to Oxford and be trained here. If this appeal enables us to do more of these things, that would be the most wonderful outcome. It would be a fitting memorial, you might say, to the sad and reprehensible loss of this lion.

 

Posted in Africa, Environment, Plants & Animals

 

This article is affirmation from one of the scientists who is directly involved that Cecil's death was a tipping point.  The loss of his life has spread light on the horrific practice of Trophy Hunting.

"Animals are not my whole world, but they have made my world whole" ~ Roger Caras
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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?


@Drythe wrote:

I"d like to comment on a few recent remarks: What 'this Cecil the lion thing' is is the slaughter of an animal, luring him out of a safe place, shooting him with an arrow, causing him to suffer 2 days before finally managing to killing him, cutting off his head and feet, skinning him, and trying to destroy his GPS tracking collar, to cover up evidence of the actions. To me that is an outrage.

 

'it's good to even get a little upset about animals being mistreated.' It's not like this lion got a spanking. Senseless killing, (of any animal, and yes, people are animals) makes me angry.

 

"TV shows like ......... does (sic) prove that sometimes, people can take their love of animals a bit too far at times. I believe thinking people deserve more credit than to think we develop our ethical beliefs, or model our behavior based on pop culture TV shows. Sure hope I'm not wrong.

 

That said, I hope we can get back to the original question @Homegirl raised.  Is Cecil a tipping point? I came across this article a few days ago, but hesitated to post it because it is a little long. However, I think some people will appreciate a response to this question directly from an interview with one of the scientists who were studying Cecil. The information about the Wildcru Long Shield project and how it plays into the local economy is particularly interesting.

 

SCIENCEINSIDER

Breaking news and analysis from the world of science policy.


For one lion researcher, Cecil’s death spurs outpouring of support

 

By Kai Kupferschmidt 31 July 2015 12:00 pm

 

The death of Cecil the lion, a particularly photogenic male cat in Zimbabwe's Hwange National Park, has sparked international outrage. Cecil was lured out of the reserve in early July by hunting guides, and then shot with an arrow by Walter Palmer, a trophy hunter and dentist from Minnesota. Palmer reportedly paid more than $50,000 for the opportunity. U.S. and Zimbabwean officials are now seeking to question Palmer, who has dropped out of sight.

 

For one researcher, however, Cecil’s death may have a silver lining. David Macdonald is part of a team of scientists at the University of Oxford’s Wildlife Research Conservation Unit in the United Kingdom that was studying Cecil. They have been tracking the movements of more than 200 lions with satellites to better understand the animals' behavior. After Jimmy Kimmel, a popular U.S. TV host, made an emotional plea for lion conservation on his show on 28 July, donations started pouring in to Macdonald’s program. Since Kimmel’s appeal, the research unit has received some $500,000 in donations.

 

ScienceInsider spoke with Macdonald about his work and Cecil. This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.

 

Q: What was your reaction when you heard of the death of this lion?
A: As a conservation biologist, it is my day-to-day work to find animals that I'm working on suffering gruesome deaths. So I am familiar with that and I seek, if possible, to make the best of it by using the information to build a stronger scientific case. On the other hand, I’m a conservation biologist because I care about wildlife. And as I have studied [Cecil] for years, and know it individually and have taken great joy watching it at close quarters, I was saddened at the thought of its death. And because it appears in this case that at least some of the actors in this were behaving illegally, one is not only saddened but enraged.
There is a third perspective: This is an example of the day-to-day reality of conservation biology trying to find ways of people and wildlife living together. Across the whole continent of Africa, lion conservation is largely in crisis. It’s a very important but also very challenging issue [of] aligning the needs of biodiversity conservation with the needs of human and community development.

 

Q: Cecil was wearing a GPS collar. What do you use that for in your research?
A: We have a system where as a lion starts to leave the park and go into the farming areas, where it may kill livestock and be a threat to people, the satellite informs my staff member in headquarters in the park. We have trained and recruited a series of very democratically chosen local people, called the Wildcru Long Shields. Each Long Shield is provided with a mountain bike, a GPS tracker, and a cellphone. As our person in the park sees a lion head toward a particular farming area, he phones the local Long Shield on the cellphone, who then uses the GPS to go to the place where the lion is. [The Long Shield] uses a vuvuzela, you know one of these trumpets, to frighten the lion back into the park. Last year we believe we have cut by 80% the loss of domestic stock by this method.

 

Q: Jimmy Kimmel urged viewers to support your research …
A: I admire what he did greatly. He has catalyzed a wonderful action. Our project relies entirely on philanthropic gifts. Every time we fit a satellite tracking collar to a lion, it costs us £1500 ($2350). Every year for each lion it costs us £500 ($780) to download the satellite data. Every time we have people going into the field, they have to drive a four-wheel-drive vehicle. To run this particular project, excluding the senior staff salaries, is going to cost us between £150,000 and £200,000 ($234,000 and $312,000) next year. We had no idea how we were going to pay for that.

 

Q: Has the appeal raised enough money?

A: At the moment it is close to half a million dollars. Hopefully it means we will be able to expand the project from Zimbabwe into adjoining areas in Botswana and Zambia. [That would make] it a landscape-scale project, rather than just in one national park. We have also been engaged in a program that I'm very proud of, where we have been finding aspiring young Zimbabweans and training them as conservation biologists, in some cases giving them scholarships to come to Oxford and be trained here. If this appeal enables us to do more of these things, that would be the most wonderful outcome. It would be a fitting memorial, you might say, to the sad and reprehensible loss of this lion.

 

Posted in Africa, Environment, Plants & Animals

 

This article is affirmation from one of the scientists who is directly involved that Cecil's death was a tipping point.  The loss of his life has spread light on the horrific practice of Trophy Hunting.


Thank you, @Drythe, for posting this.  How wonderful that so much money has recently been raised, and that it will be used for a larger protected area than they had even planned.  I'm including a copy of your whole post so there is less chance of anyone missing it.

 

It seems the researcher has answered my question with a resounding "yes."  I only fault him for keeping his scientific demeanor intact by referring to Cecil as "it."  I suppose that could be done for any number of reasons, but if I were in his shoes, I'd always call an animal "he" or "she."  Even if I weren't sure, I would still say "he or she."  I strayed from the main focus perhaps, but I look at it as giving an animal respect.

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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?

blahblahvampemerblah wrote:"Great article in the WSJ about trophy hunting saving the lions because it can destroy the market for poachers.  It also helps control the damage lions do to livestock populations.  Tons of info in there."

 

I'd love to know the difference between those who trophy hunt and those who poach. It's tomato/tomahto to the dead lions


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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?


@suzyQ3 wrote:

blahblahvampemerblah wrote:"Great article in the WSJ about trophy hunting saving the lions because it can destroy the market for poachers.  It also helps control the damage lions do to livestock populations.  Tons of info in there."

 

I'd love to know the difference between those who trophy hunt and those who poach. It's tomato/tomahto to the dead lions


Poaching is killing an animal illegally, for instance out of season or in a restricted zone, wrong sex, etc.  anything against regulation.

 

Trophy hunting is hunting legally following all the rules and regulation, seeking an exemplary animal.

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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?

[ Edited ]

 

 

Poaching is killing an animal illegally, for instance out of season or in a restricted zone, wrong sex, etc. anything against regulation.

Trophy hunting is hunting legally following all the rules and regulation, seeking an exemplary animal. To kill.   Parts of the slain animals are kept as a hunting trophy, and the carcass is sometimes used as food.

 

 

 

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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?


@Kachina624 wrote:

@suzyQ3 wrote:

blahblahvampemerblah wrote:"Great article in the WSJ about trophy hunting saving the lions because it can destroy the market for poachers.  It also helps control the damage lions do to livestock populations.  Tons of info in there."

 

I'd love to know the difference between those who trophy hunt and those who poach. It's tomato/tomahto to the dead lions


Poaching is killing an animal illegally, for instance out of season or in a restricted zone, wrong sex, etc.  anything against regulation.

 

Trophy hunting is hunting legally following all the rules and regulation, seeking an exemplary animal.


____________________________________________________________

 

1. Trophy hunting is OFTEN done illegally eg. Cecil is a case in point, regarding endangered, protected species.  

 

2. If it is legal (albeit violating the laws of nature, preservation, eco-systems etc) in a particular country but regarded illegal in the country the hunter comes from, for instance, then this is hypocritical, at best, purely opportunistic, and at worse immoral and criminal in intent and deed.

 

3. Times change, light bulbs turn on, greater awareness of how delicate the balance of nature is on Earth all now point to this method of so-called hunting being no longer acceptable, defensible or sustainable.

 

Human narcissism and arrogance is such that people are blinded to the consequences not only to the natural systems, but also to themselves. We cannot continue this way without it affecting human life in the long run - soon to be short run. We are already seeing the effects of this arrogance in all areas of life that affect us on a daily basis.

 

Short-term ignorance and willful blindness is no longer a viable option.

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Re: Is Cecil a tipping point?


@Kachina624 wrote:

@suzyQ3 wrote:

blahblahvampemerblah wrote:"Great article in the WSJ about trophy hunting saving the lions because it can destroy the market for poachers.  It also helps control the damage lions do to livestock populations.  Tons of info in there."

 

I'd love to know the difference between those who trophy hunt and those who poach. It's tomato/tomahto to the dead lions


Poaching is killing an animal illegally, for instance out of season or in a restricted zone, wrong sex, etc.  anything against regulation.

 

Trophy hunting is hunting legally following all the rules and regulation, seeking an exemplary animal.


Thank you, but my question was a broader one than that. I don't believe in either poaching or trophy hunting. So to me, it's a distinction without a difference.


~Who in the world am I? Ah, that's the great puzzle~ Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland