Community Chat

[SuiGeneris]

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

Simple answer...from his own free will of thought. His thoughts gave birth to sin just as Jesus expressed. Does God have the power to know all and see all? Of course He does. Does He always exercise that power in all things? It is obvious He does not when it come to his creations of angels and humans. That would not be fair to us or His angels. He gives us the opportunity to prove our faithfulness to Him.

So, God saw the evil thoughts in Lucifer's mind, because He is omniscient. He allowed him to rebel and take a third of the angels with him [to He||], even though He is omnipotent and could have prevented it. Thus, He allowed the inception of evil into this world [Earth, not Heaven].

God "knew" evil existed when He resided with His angels in Heaven, because He "knew" that Lucifer would rebel; He also knew of the existence of evil because He planted a tree with the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. He then allowed a serpent into that garden to tempt Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit and thus gain knowledge of evil, and bring about the corruption of mankind.

If you accept all these facts, how can you contend that there can possibly be "good" without evil?

I contend that there has always been evil, just as there has always been good. Since God has always possessed the knowledge of evil, then there has been evil since the world began, and it resided in God's mind. That doesn't make Him evil, but it makes evil exist, if only in a being's mind.

[rarejan]

On 3/29/2015 SuiGeneris said:

On 3/29/2015 rarejan said:

All that is contingent of course on whether one believes the premise of the Bible. If not, well, we'd have to rethink this.

We then go back to my original post about the dual nature of this world.

There are not just physical attributes of this duality I mentioned such dry and wet, light and dark, hot and cold; there are also metaphysical (beyond physics) concepts such as life and death, consciousness and unconsciousness, adult and child [I would also include God/human.] and good and evil.

We're not able to recognize, explain or understand one opposite concept without the being/presence of the other.

I would be interested to hear somebody explain what "good" is without "evil" somehow entering into the explanation.

ETA: How do you know that a mother's love is "good" unless you have experienced the "evil" of a taunt of one of your classmates? How do you know a beautiful sunny day is "good" without experiencing a dark, gloomy, rainy day? How do you know that your life is precious without the knowledge that death is inevitably coming?

Well I agree with you if you read the first page of this thread, you'll see that I'm on it. There have been a lot of posts since citing Bible verses, which of course, not everyone believes in.

[Pashmina_1]

On 3/29/2015 SuiGeneris said:

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

Simple answer...from his own free will of thought. His thoughts gave birth to sin just as Jesus expressed. Does God have the power to know all and see all? Of course He does. Does He always exercise that power in all things? It is obvious He does not when it come to his creations of angels and humans. That would not be fair to us or His angels. He gives us the opportunity to prove our faithfulness to Him.

So, God saw the evil thoughts in Lucifer's mind, because He is omniscient. He allowed him to rebel and take a third of the angels with him [to He||], even though He is omnipotent and could have prevented it. Thus, He allowed the inception of evil into this world [Earth, not Heaven].

God "knew" evil existed when He resided with His angels in Heaven, because He "knew" that Lucifer would rebel; He also knew of the existence of evil because He planted a tree with the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. He then allowed a serpent into that garden to tempt Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit and thus gain knowledge of evil, and bring about the corruption of mankind.

If you accept all these facts, how can you contend that there can possibly be "good" without evil?

I contend that there has always been evil, just as there has always been good. Since God has always possessed the knowledge of evil, then there has been evil since the world began, and it resided in God's mind. That doesn't make Him evil, but it makes evil exist, if only in a being's mind.

No I didn't say that or believe it, you did. Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

[Juniper2]

Maybe God needed us to experience evil so that we would know how it destroys and therefore we would reject it. However, I also believe that Satan is still very strong and we lose battles to him everyday. We are slowly losing ground on the moral front and soon we will see the results of this evil and the coming generations will have to reject it, or face their own punishments.

[SuiGeneris]

On 3/27/2015 rarejan said:

How can we know something is good if we don't know its opposite? Where do we get the idea that something is good if we have nothing to compare it with?

rarejan,

I'm quoting your first post on this thread, which I inadvertently neglected to read when I first posted on this thread.

My first post on this thread was a complement to yours, in that it agrees with yours, not that it "completes" your thought. Your thought was succinct and fully expressed. Thank you.

[rarejan]

On 3/29/2015 SuiGeneris said:

On 3/27/2015 rarejan said:

How can we know something is good if we don't know its opposite? Where do we get the idea that something is good if we have nothing to compare it with?

rarejan,

I'm quoting your first post on this thread, which I inadvertently neglected to read when I first posted on this thread.

My first post on this thread was a complement to yours, in that it agrees with yours, not that it "completes" your thought. Your thought was succinct and fully expressed. Thank you.

Yes! I knew we were in agreement. We frequently are, although I don't post much these days.

[SuiGeneris]

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

On 3/29/2015 SuiGeneris said:

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

Simple answer...from his own free will of thought. His thoughts gave birth to sin just as Jesus expressed. Does God have the power to know all and see all? Of course He does. Does He always exercise that power in all things? It is obvious He does not when it come to his creations of angels and humans. That would not be fair to us or His angels. He gives us the opportunity to prove our faithfulness to Him.

So, God saw the evil thoughts in Lucifer's mind, because He is omniscient. He allowed him to rebel and take a third of the angels with him [to He||], even though He is omnipotent and could have prevented it. Thus, He allowed the inception of evil into this world [Earth, not Heaven].

God "knew" evil existed when He resided with His angels in Heaven, because He "knew" that Lucifer would rebel; He also knew of the existence of evil because He planted a tree with the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. He then allowed a serpent into that garden to tempt Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit and thus gain knowledge of evil, and bring about the corruption of mankind.

If you accept all these facts, how can you contend that there can possibly be "good" without evil?

I contend that there has always been evil, just as there has always been good. Since God has always possessed the knowledge of evil, then there has been evil since the world began, and it resided in God's mind. That doesn't make Him evil, but it makes evil exist, if only in a being's mind.

No I didn't say that or believe it, you did. Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Yes, I did.

You said:

"Lucifer's thoughts gave birth to sin." I say, Since God is omniscient, He knew of Lucifer's thoughts even before Lucifer knew them.

You said:

"Does God have the power to know all and see all [omniscience]?" I say, Since He "knows all and sees all," He has seen the evil in all hearts since the beginning of time. The Bible says God has "no beginning and no end." He is omnipresent and omnipotent, which leads to:

You said:

"Does He always exercise that power in all things? It is obvious He does not when it come to his creations of angels and humans. " I say, God had the power to stop Lucifer from leaving Heaven with a third of the angels. He could have destroyed them all. Instead, He chose to allow them to descend to the Earth and bring evil with them. We know Satan was on earth, because it says in Job 1:6-7: “One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, ’Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the Lord, ‘From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it’”

You said:

"That would not be fair to us or His angels." I say, Whoever said God is "fair?" He is just, merciful and kind, but He has also been described as full of wrath, vengeful and ready to punish anyone He pleases. God decides who deserves His wrath, vengeance and punishment, not us. We don't have a modicum of insight into God's mind. How many times do the Psalmists moan about "the wic*ked prospering," while they are "suffering?" Is that "fair?" Hebrews 12:6 says, “the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.” Does that seem "fair?" We won't know until the Judgement Day why God does what He does, and I don't think anyone will be complaining that He wasn't being "fair."

I still contend that evil has existed since the beginning of time, because God has no beginning and no end. If "evil" existed in God's mind, then evil has always been here, along with "good."

[Pashmina_1]

Justice is one of God's qualities so that would make Him is the epitome of fairness. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. And Satan was never referred to as Lucifer.

[SuiGeneris]

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

Justice is one of God's qualities so that would make Him is the epitome of fairness. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. And Satan was never referred to as Lucifer.

"Justice" and "fairness" are not the same thing.

Justice is objective, "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts."

Fairness is subjective, "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions."

Since God doesn't have "personal feelings, tastes or opinions," He cannot possible be "fair" and be God.

ETA: That is why we are supposed to administer "justice" in a court of law, without considering what we consider to be "fair." I should know, since I recently sat on a jury in a federal district court, and I was never told to decide on the basis of what I considered "fair."

[SuiGeneris]

On 3/29/2015 Pashmina said:

Justice is one of God's qualities so that would make Him is the epitome of fairness. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. And Satan was never referred to as Lucifer.

Who then is Lucifer if he is not Satan? Isaiah 14:12-17 NKJV:

The Fall of Lucifer

¹² “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
¹³ For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
¹⁴ I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
¹⁵ Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

¹⁶ “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
¹⁷ Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’