Re: Washing off physical sunscreen without oil

suzyQ3 · ‎03-09-2010

@Funloving wrote:
@suzyQ3 wrote:
@Funloving

You can call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner (oy, what an old line). And I'm not fussy about spelling either.

@suzyQ3

@It kind of defeats the purpose of the forum feature when I type in @thewrongname... ha ha.

My worn out line is "you can call me anything you want... just call me."

Actually it's good to know you're not fussy about spelling. Some people are persnickety in this regard. My business involves a lot of writing which is a totally different ballgame.

I think cyber has made us more lax with proper spelling and grammar. But I'll take your permanent hall pass. God knows I need it.

@Funloving

Haha...For many years I taught the nuts and bolts of English language skills (grammar, punctionation, vocabulary, word usage, and spelling) to adult students studying to become court reporters.

Humor and a big dose of tolerance went much further in helping them WANT to learn than would have persnickety raps on the knuckles.

~Who in the world am I? Ah, that's the great puzzle~ Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Violet Fields · ‎03-10-2010

Thanks again for all of your replies! If I don't address each one, I still appreciate them all! And no, I don't mind if the topic has veered a little since it's good-natured veering.

A few said they use soap to wash their faces, but it dries my face out, no matter what I've tried.

The PTR cucumber cleanser sounds good. I'll look it up and check ingredients. I try to avoid dyes, parabens, alcohol, and a few others. Clinique seems to use dye in lots of their products, but it's not in the cleansing balm. I don't know about their other cleansers though.

The One Love Organics cleanser looks good too. I'm not sure if lavender oil irritates my skin - I thought I saw it in that cleanser. I'm sure it could be returned if it doesn't work out anyway. But for the oil cleansers, do you always have to use a warm washcloth? If it's on the cooler side of luke warm it might be ok, but any kind of heat really flares my face.

Violet Fields · ‎03-10-2010

@cerinthe wrote:
I use the Fallene COTZ 58 and use a two step process. I use a creamy but water soluble cleanser (like Cereve's Creamy lotion cleanser) and then rinse that off with water, and use a wet microfiber cloth to gently wipe my face. Then I use a foaming cleanser. (like Alpha Hydrox foaming cleanser or Cereve's foaming cleanser.) Its hard to find a good simple water soluble creamy cleanser, but I think Neutrogena used to make one too. (I prefer all my products to be fragrance free, color free, etc.)

I should note that since my twenties, I have ALWAYS used two cleansers, like the types above: a water soluble creamy make-up removing one, and then a gentle foaming, even before the Fallene COTZ or other makeups. This was started when I first used a line from Canada (at that time,) called "Biogime" and they had a two step cleansing process. It kept away most acne, but was hands down the only way to prevent my cystic breakouts. And to this day it still is! I have tested this on and off for decades and hands down, the two step cleansing process works best for me. (I loved that Biogime line and used it for almost 10 years! The owners have changed hands a number of times. You can still find it, and the ingredients are pretty much the same.)

I often (about every other day,) use a glycolic peel (like Alpha Hydrox 14% wipes, or any 10% liquid solution that I like,) to keep my skin 'fresh.'

Added note: Before I found my stash of microfiber clothes (which are designed for makeup removal, and purchased at the Q a couple years ago, they are blue,) I would use a normal white cotton wash cloth for that step of the process, but I would USE IT LIGHTLY. LIGHTLY. Don't just scrub across your face hard. My skin is pretty sensitive with a low-scale rosacea (or 'pre-rosacea' as my derm calls it,) so any scrubbing or harsh rubbing on my face will upset it and cause it to flare, redden, and become even more sensitive.

Hmm. I'll have to try your method of cleansing - thanks. Is the glycolic peel harsh? I think I really need something like that, especially in the winter when my skin looks so dull. I get cystic acne too and am looking into Biogime! I've heard of using microfiber clothes for your face but didn't realize some are made especially for that.

HappyDaze · ‎06-13-2012

@Violet Fields wrote:
Thanks again for all of your replies! If I don't address each one, I still appreciate them all! And no, I don't mind if the topic has veered a little since it's good-natured veering.

A few said they use soap to wash their faces, but it dries my face out, no matter what I've tried.

The PTR cucumber cleanser sounds good. I'll look it up and check ingredients. I try to avoid dyes, parabens, alcohol, and a few others. Clinique seems to use dye in lots of their products, but it's not in the cleansing balm. I don't know about their other cleansers though.

The One Love Organics cleanser looks good too. I'm not sure if lavender oil irritates my skin - I thought I saw it in that cleanser. I'm sure it could be returned if it doesn't work out anyway. But for the oil cleansers, do you always have to use a warm washcloth? If it's on the cooler side of luke warm it might be ok, but any kind of heat really flares my face.

Thanks for not being upset, VF!

And no no, there is NO lavender oil in the One love organics cleanser.

When I use the OLO cleansing oil, I personally usually do NOT use a washcloth or cloth. I apply to dry face, splash some water on to a creamy milkiness and rinse off with water. I only use cool to lukewarm water to remove it- hot or warmer water is really not good for skin in general as it can be drying. Only occasionally do I use my muslin cloth (I use it instead of a washcloth) with my cleanser. That is another reason I like the OLO- I don't need to use the cloth to get all my makeup off, even mascara.

Good luck in whatever you choose to try and I hope you find something that you love!

Violet Fields · ‎03-10-2010

@HappyDaze wrote:
@Violet Fields wrote:
Thanks again for all of your replies! If I don't address each one, I still appreciate them all! And no, I don't mind if the topic has veered a little since it's good-natured veering.

A few said they use soap to wash their faces, but it dries my face out, no matter what I've tried.

The PTR cucumber cleanser sounds good. I'll look it up and check ingredients. I try to avoid dyes, parabens, alcohol, and a few others. Clinique seems to use dye in lots of their products, but it's not in the cleansing balm. I don't know about their other cleansers though.

The One Love Organics cleanser looks good too. I'm not sure if lavender oil irritates my skin - I thought I saw it in that cleanser. I'm sure it could be returned if it doesn't work out anyway. But for the oil cleansers, do you always have to use a warm washcloth? If it's on the cooler side of luke warm it might be ok, but any kind of heat really flares my face.
Thanks for not being upset, VF!

And no no, there is NO lavender oil in the One love organics cleanser.

When I use the OLO cleansing oil, I personally usually do NOT use a washcloth or cloth. I apply to dry face, splash some water on to a creamy milkiness and rinse off with water. I only use cool to lukewarm water to remove it- hot or warmer water is really not good for skin in general as it can be drying. Only occasionally do I use my muslin cloth (I use it instead of a washcloth) with my cleanser. That is another reason I like the OLO- I don't need to use the cloth to get all my makeup off, even mascara.

Good luck in whatever you choose to try and I hope you find something that you love!

Thanks, HappyDaze! I must've been looking at something else that had lavender oil, so that's good! No cloth and no vigorous rubbing is really what I'm looking for.

cerinthe · ‎03-10-2010

I would categorize the 14% Alpha Hydrox peel as 'harsh'. Here's my story. When my face became extra red and sensitive in my 30s, I went to my dermatologist. One of his recommendations was to try and get some sort of alpha hydroxy acid (AHA, as opposed to BHA, beta hydroxy acids, check out Paula Begoin's website paulaschoice.com for great explanations about these differences and benefits of each. The BHAs really do nothing for my skin, but they help many people...)

Ok, so the derm recommended added some gentle exfoliation into my routine. We started with a lotion which was designed for the body and had a low level of lactic acid (still an AHA,) that was just mineral oil based, no fragrance, super simple, etc. I can't remember the name, but it was similar to Amlactin and only in certain drugstores. The first couple days, when I used it as a moisturizer, my face stung slightly, and I would rinse it off. By the end of the week, my face was not stinging or turning red. AND it seemed to be settling down. (I have to say that this is when I also switched to getting methodical with mineral/physical based sunscreens which ALSO helped.)

So the lactic acid cream was a huge success. My skin was reacting very well to it. I wanted to turn it up, so I found ... Aqua Glycolic! A hard to find line (its at drugstore.com now,) and had success with that. Then I found (after much reseach,) Alpha Hydrox and loved their ingredients and 10% lotion and foaming cleanser. I upgraded to the 14% pads (which are scratchy by the way,) when they came out and have done well with them. I like my alpha hydroxys in a liquid form (which I leave on about 10-15 minutes and then rinse off,) because I like to apply a treatment cream/oil/treatment like retinol based or retin-A or Vitamin C/etc., based, and I like a clean slate when I do that.

Almost all this time I used the Fallene COTZ 58, maybe 10-15 years? I use others, but come back to it, since it works for me, is water resistant and really just sticks on my face with minimum fuss (and since I used to be out in sun/wind/ocean a lot, that helped.) And it shuts that redness/sensitivity. Its not the sunscreen for everyone, but that is why everyone's top priority should be finding the sunscreen which works for you and USE IT EVERY DAY.

When I don't use a regular exfoliator (which for me, is an alpha hydroxy acid, specifically now, the Alpha Hydrox line,) then my skin gets this 'weird thickness orange peel, numbing, super senstive red, itchy, some acne,' condition on my cheeks especially, and does NOT act like healthy normal skin. When I use it (WITH A SUNSCREEN,) then it does a good job of being normal skin (as normal as it can be.) So for me, I will not leave alpha hydroxy acids. I have tried the BHAs about every three or two years, I will try them, but... nope. My skin doesn't react to them the same way and will slowly deteriorate and get worse (as described above.)

So, if you wanted to try them, I recommend trying the lowest level possible. Like Paula's Choice 5% lotion, when its back in stock. If you see some good results, you can VERY SLOWLY (like wait several months, imo,) move up, and see how that feels. I think Alpha Hydrox makes a lower level than those 14% peel pads. Also, if you have oily skin, go for a lighter version, if you have dryer skin (I have dry skin!) go for lotions or creams. I LOVE the Alpha Hydrox 14% souffle. Its super light and fabulous and inexpensive and potent, at the right pH.

And... you should read the articles about how important pH is to these acids. Its super important. Paula Begoin has great articles and Alpha Hydrox had an amazing article about dilution rates on their blog. I mention this, because MANY companies will say "oh, I have natural glycolics like lemon juice in mine..." but if the pH isn't right, it is not going to perform as an exfoliator and REALLY you might be looking at redness and irritation from some of those citrus oils!

Ok the Alpha Hydrox blog post I'm thinking of was like 2 years ago, but I'm scanning through their blog and they did bring this up in another post:

"For an AHA to be truly effective, the percentage of AHA should be between 8% and 14%. A product with less than 8% is little more than a moisturizer. Products that claim to have more than 14% are considered a chemical peel and really should be administered by a dermatologist. There are two other pieces of information to consider when reading labels related to AHA’s.

Now you know what percentage is effective but, it is a percentage of what? AHA’s are an ingredient in a solution that makes up a cream, lotion or gel. That means that no AHA solution is made up of 100% AHA’s. When companies refer to the percentage on labels and packages the percent is usually based on a 70% AHA solution. Here is an example; 8% of a 70% solution is really 5.6% (70 x 8% = 5.6). So an 8% AHA is really 5.6% of the overall formula. Don’t be fooled by misleading claims.

Finally, you should know the importance of pH levels when reading cosmetics labels. To be effective, the pH level for an AHA should be between 3.5 and 4.0. If the pH level that is too low will be too acidic and irritating. A pH level of more than 4.0 is too alkaline to be effective and acts more like a moisturizer. Be wary of alpha hydroxy acid products that do not list the percentage of AHA or pH levels. They could have too little AHA to be effective or may not be properly formulated."

That is from the company Alpha Hydrox's blog (go to neotericcosmetics.com for Alpha Hydrox products,) and when I read that dilution information, it made everything so clear!

Ok, I know this was a long answer, thank you for making it this far, but I wanted to get you the information that took me so many years to get right and understand myself, so you can hop right into what works best for you.

Biogime is SUPER simply formulated. Its lovely. I love they have an aloe based toner step (which is really just adding water back in, so you can seal it in.)

However, I don't think those ingredients are the magic bullet for cystic acne, for my face at least. What is best is that 'one-two' punch of a 1) water soluble creamy cleanser and 2) gentle foaming cleanser. Also when I was taught Biogime (ha ha) they were the ones who brough the washcloth into the equation. But used GENTLY to remove the two cleansers. Also, Biogime taught me to always wash my hands FIRST, before washing my face. Its a total no brainer when you think about the amount of dirt and bacteria on your hands, and it also makes the cleansers work better, because there is less 'dirt/oil/etc.' (on your hands and face) to have to cleanse as you massage the products around. Biogime taught me a lot as a young 19/20 year old kid! But I would never stop anyone from exploring that product line because I love the formulations, process and products (last I saw their ingredient decks,) to this day! There's no retinol, acids, or anything that could be irritating to most skins. And sometimes when the face is just blown up crazy, its best to take all the skincare out of the equation and go back to basics (and sunscreen!)

Zhills · ‎11-15-2011

Thanks to everyone for the information on this thread. I have found that "soap & water" does not remove zinc oxide completely. I'll be trying the products you have mentioned.

Violet Fields · ‎03-10-2010

@cerinthe wrote:
I would categorize the 14% Alpha Hydrox peel as 'harsh'. Here's my story. When my face became extra red and sensitive in my 30s, I went to my dermatologist. One of his recommendations was to try and get some sort of alpha hydroxy acid (AHA, as opposed to BHA, beta hydroxy acids, check out Paula Begoin's website paulaschoice.com for great explanations about these differences and benefits of each. The BHAs really do nothing for my skin, but they help many people...)

Ok, so the derm recommended added some gentle exfoliation into my routine. We started with a lotion which was designed for the body and had a low level of lactic acid (still an AHA,) that was just mineral oil based, no fragrance, super simple, etc. I can't remember the name, but it was similar to Amlactin and only in certain drugstores. The first couple days, when I used it as a moisturizer, my face stung slightly, and I would rinse it off. By the end of the week, my face was not stinging or turning red. AND it seemed to be settling down. (I have to say that this is when I also switched to getting methodical with mineral/physical based sunscreens which ALSO helped.)

So the lactic acid cream was a huge success. My skin was reacting very well to it. I wanted to turn it up, so I found ... Aqua Glycolic! A hard to find line (its at drugstore.com now,) and had success with that. Then I found (after much reseach,) Alpha Hydrox and loved their ingredients and 10% lotion and foaming cleanser. I upgraded to the 14% pads (which are scratchy by the way,) when they came out and have done well with them. I like my alpha hydroxys in a liquid form (which I leave on about 10-15 minutes and then rinse off,) because I like to apply a treatment cream/oil/treatment like retinol based or retin-A or Vitamin C/etc., based, and I like a clean slate when I do that.

Almost all this time I used the Fallene COTZ 58, maybe 10-15 years? I use others, but come back to it, since it works for me, is water resistant and really just sticks on my face with minimum fuss (and since I used to be out in sun/wind/ocean a lot, that helped.) And it shuts that redness/sensitivity. Its not the sunscreen for everyone, but that is why everyone's top priority should be finding the sunscreen which works for you and USE IT EVERY DAY.

When I don't use a regular exfoliator (which for me, is an alpha hydroxy acid, specifically now, the Alpha Hydrox line,) then my skin gets this 'weird thickness orange peel, numbing, super senstive red, itchy, some acne,' condition on my cheeks especially, and does NOT act like healthy normal skin. When I use it (WITH A SUNSCREEN,) then it does a good job of being normal skin (as normal as it can be.) So for me, I will not leave alpha hydroxy acids. I have tried the BHAs about every three or two years, I will try them, but... nope. My skin doesn't react to them the same way and will slowly deteriorate and get worse (as described above.)

So, if you wanted to try them, I recommend trying the lowest level possible. Like Paula's Choice 5% lotion, when its back in stock. If you see some good results, you can VERY SLOWLY (like wait several months, imo,) move up, and see how that feels. I think Alpha Hydrox makes a lower level than those 14% peel pads. Also, if you have oily skin, go for a lighter version, if you have dryer skin (I have dry skin!) go for lotions or creams. I LOVE the Alpha Hydrox 14% souffle. Its super light and fabulous and inexpensive and potent, at the right pH.

And... you should read the articles about how important pH is to these acids. Its super important. Paula Begoin has great articles and Alpha Hydrox had an amazing article about dilution rates on their blog. I mention this, because MANY companies will say "oh, I have natural glycolics like lemon juice in mine..." but if the pH isn't right, it is not going to perform as an exfoliator and REALLY you might be looking at redness and irritation from some of those citrus oils!

Ok the Alpha Hydrox blog post I'm thinking of was like 2 years ago, but I'm scanning through their blog and they did bring this up in another post:

"For an AHA to be truly effective, the percentage of AHA should be between 8% and 14%. A product with less than 8% is little more than a moisturizer. Products that claim to have more than 14% are considered a chemical peel and really should be administered by a dermatologist. There are two other pieces of information to consider when reading labels related to AHA’s.

Now you know what percentage is effective but, it is a percentage of what? AHA’s are an ingredient in a solution that makes up a cream, lotion or gel. That means that no AHA solution is made up of 100% AHA’s. When companies refer to the percentage on labels and packages the percent is usually based on a 70% AHA solution. Here is an example; 8% of a 70% solution is really 5.6% (70 x 8% = 5.6). So an 8% AHA is really 5.6% of the overall formula. Don’t be fooled by misleading claims.

Finally, you should know the importance of pH levels when reading cosmetics labels. To be effective, the pH level for an AHA should be between 3.5 and 4.0. If the pH level that is too low will be too acidic and irritating. A pH level of more than 4.0 is too alkaline to be effective and acts more like a moisturizer. Be wary of alpha hydroxy acid products that do not list the percentage of AHA or pH levels. They could have too little AHA to be effective or may not be properly formulated."

That is from the company Alpha Hydrox's blog (go to neotericcosmetics.com for Alpha Hydrox products,) and when I read that dilution information, it made everything so clear!

Ok, I know this was a long answer, thank you for making it this far, but I wanted to get you the information that took me so many years to get right and understand myself, so you can hop right into what works best for you.

Biogime is SUPER simply formulated. Its lovely. I love they have an aloe based toner step (which is really just adding water back in, so you can seal it in.)

However, I don't think those ingredients are the magic bullet for cystic acne, for my face at least. What is best is that 'one-two' punch of a 1) water soluble creamy cleanser and 2) gentle foaming cleanser. Also when I was taught Biogime (ha ha) they were the ones who brough the washcloth into the equation. But used GENTLY to remove the two cleansers. Also, Biogime taught me to always wash my hands FIRST, before washing my face. Its a total no brainer when you think about the amount of dirt and bacteria on your hands, and it also makes the cleansers work better, because there is less 'dirt/oil/etc.' (on your hands and face) to have to cleanse as you massage the products around. Biogime taught me a lot as a young 19/20 year old kid! But I would never stop anyone from exploring that product line because I love the formulations, process and products (last I saw their ingredient decks,) to this day! There's no retinol, acids, or anything that could be irritating to most skins. And sometimes when the face is just blown up crazy, its best to take all the skincare out of the equation and go back to basics (and sunscreen!)

Wow, thanks for all the information! I'll read Paula's site about exfoliating. Wintertime is when I really need it, maybe because I sweat so much over the summer when it's so nice and humid and the winters are really dry. My skin is so sensitive I'd have to start out really slowly.

Violet Fields · ‎03-10-2010

Over the past couple days I've been trying Simple Micellar Water. It's much better than what I was using to remove sunscreen, but I still have to rub some to get it off. I'll continue using it to see how it goes, but also have my eye on the One Love Organics oil cleanser!