Beauty

[MarenSeattle]

On 8/13/2014 HappyDaze said:

On 8/13/2014 myshell624 said:

On 8/13/2014 HappyDaze said:

On 8/13/2014 Harpa said:

myshell, I've been reading about your vitamin C quest and your wondering about the proper pH for vitamin C. Since I have had so few problems over the years (well, no problems, really) with the skin things I've tried, I didn't pay much attention to pH. What I learned, though, is that your skin needs to be somewhat acidic in order to fight off bacteria. That's the acid mantle Manuella mentioned.

pH may be "off" in skincare things, if you are experiencing adverse skin problems; i.e., the redness, breakouts, acne, etc.

Since you cannot use L-ascorbic acid, because in order for that to be effective, it needs that lower pH, then just stick with the forms you can use. You said you tried different L-ascorbic Cs, but I'm not sure if you've experimented with different C strengths, and if your reaction is the same. (I have other theories on this, but on reserve.)

I think too many times we (on the BB) think topically, but you can also obtain your quota of C internally. Read the Linus Pauling studies on the benefits of internal C. And if you cannot use it topically, I wouldn't fret. (Unless you are still experimenting with what <em>you</em> can use and wanting to change it for some reason.)

But, not everyone can use every thing. Your own skin should tell you what you need, or what is even feasible.

My skin type can use L-ascorbic acid w/ no problems. I already know (and sometimes think about) the pH of my morning cleanser (which is neutral). Since I have no adverse conditions, I just continue with what I'm using. Same with my moisturizer or whatever else I use. I don't always know what pH those things have, but somewhere I have to trust that my skin pH is what it should be, <em>since there are no visible signs to the contrary.</em>

If you can say <em>that</em> with what you are using, then I think you're on the right track.

I think you missed her point- when vitamin C isn't maintained at the proper pH, it can be ineffective. An infeffective vitamin C will NOT cause you any irritation. She wants to be sure her vitamin C- whichever form she chooses- is at the proper, ideal pH so that it is actual doing what it is suppose to do in terms of supporting/protecting the skin (free radical scavenging, etc). You can not judge whether a vitamin C product is doing anything for you just based on whether or not you have a visible sign of irritation and in fact, you will NOT see any irritation for some types of vitamin C (and for l-ascorbic acid if it is formulated well with other calming/soothing ingredients) and yet it may not be doing anything for you if it isn't at the proper pH and/or has been oxidized due to exposure to light and air, etc.

To simply say if you aren't experiencing irritation that it must be fine and working for you isn't right at all, not in the case of vitamin C anyway.

Yes that is exactly my concern. What's so frustrating is the lack if information about other forms of vitamin c. Most of what I've found is about L-Ascorbic acid and I'm not sure the same applies for other forms.

well I only go by scientific studies and not random information on various beauty sites that have no scientific studies to support their information or claims. I am not saying they are wrong but I would like to know where they are getting the information they are stating and am particularly skeptical when it is a site that promote certain brands or has their own line of products.

But anyway, there are several scientific studies that discuss the other forms of Vitamin C and proper pH and formulation, etc but they are pretty high level science studies with alot of technical jargon most wouldn't understand. That is why I've been posting about the proper pH levels of vitamin C for awhile and am not going to debate it anymore with people because it is tiresome lol and people will continue to say things like yeah but on livestrong it says...and well, I am not going to argue with articles that don't have any scientific studies listed to support their claims. Not saying they are wrong but I want to know where they get their information as I know what information I personally have to refute alot of what gets posted here.

I'm always pleased to see you weigh in, HD, and grateful for your patience! When I link to a study (and you're right -- rarely provided) and try to absorb the info, my head gets light and my eyes start watering. I just don't understand a LOT of it. I think the study linked to on NCN's site was pretty thorough, but really, what do I know? Didn't understand a whole lot of that one, either, but I'm taking a leap of faith with Nanci's conclusions as I believe she studies a lot of her product ingredients and understands these far better than I (and who doesn't?).

I've seen an improvement with ASDM's MAP product, although that was on my "Tria Tan" and it might have faded that quickly anyway, but when that runs out, I'm going to give NCN's a shot as Nanci feels 20% is the optimal percentage.

This entire discussion has made me more aware again (I brieflyl was in the 70's) of pH and the importance of proper levels in products as well as internally.

Anyway, thanks again. :-)

[MarenSeattle]

Katluvr sent me a piece by Patricia Wexler -- a nice basic primer on pH:

"The skin's barrier, which is known as the acid mantle, is responsible for keeping in lipids and moisture while blocking germs, pollution, toxins, and bacteria," explains Patricia Wexler, M.D., a New York City dermatologist. "To work its best, the acid mantle should be slightly acidic, at a 5.5 pH balance. When it's too alkaline, skin becomes dry and sensitive; you may even get eczema. You may also experience inflammation, which inhibits the skin's ability to ward off matrix metalloproteinases [MMPs], the enzymes that destroy collagen and cause wrinkles and sagging."

In fact, according to a 2010 study published in the British Journal of Dermatology that tracked women's skin over an eight-year period, women with an alkaline stratum corneum (the skin's outermost layer) developed more fine lines and crow's-feet—and were more prone to sun damage—than those with acidic skin. Though it's rarer for skin to be overly acidic, the result is often angry breakouts (even for those of us who rarely get a pimple). When skin deviates too far south of that magical 5.5 number, it's also stripped down to the point of being red, inflamed, and painful to touch.

Thankfully, equalizing your skin is significantly easier than balancing your life—without a therapy session in sight. First, determine your skin's likely pH level by taking our quick quiz, then learn how to get it back on track. All it takes is a few simple and inexpensive tweaks to your beauty routine and your diet.

[Katluvr58]

I just came into this, can I get the Cliff Note version, lol. JK

[Harpa]

Here is that quiz:

Acid Test
Answer these questions to find out where you fall on the pH spectrum.

1. How does your skin feel after cleansing?
a) Soft and smooth
b) Tight and dry
c) Still slightly oily or not thoroughly clean

2. How often do you moisturize your face?
a) At least morning and evening
b) Once a day
c) Never

3. Has your skin become sensitive to products you regularly use, including makeup and creams?
a) No, it feels normal, like always.
b) Once in a while
c) Yes. It seems like it reacts to everything I put on it lately.

4. How often does your skin have dry, flaky, rough patches?
a) Never
b) Sometimes
c) Usually

5. Do you notice that your skin looks duller and has more lines in the morning?
a) No
b) Yes, usually
c) It's a very rare occurrence.

6. Is your skin excessively oily and prone to breakouts (whereas it wasn't in the past)?
a) No
b) Occasionally
c) Yes

7. Does your skin often look red and feel irritated?
a) No
b) It stings only after applying products.
c) Yes

8. Does your skin look plump, moist, and dewy?
a) Almost always
b) Rarely
c) It's plump, but more greasy than dewy.

If you answered mostly b's, your skin's pH is. . .
Too high. Your chronic dryness and wrinkling likely mean your acid mantle is being dismantled—you're too alkaline, baby. With its protective lipids removed, your skin is falling prey to bacteria, UV rays, and harsh ingredients. Take a close look at how (and how often) you're cleansing, scrubbing, and hydrating. You need to make sure that your skin can ward off the damaging factors that are making it look older than it should.

If you answered mostly a's, your skin's pH is. . .
Just right! Your skin (and its pH) live in a shiny, happy place not inhabited by premature aging and wrinkles. Having skin this good isn't an accident, so kudos to you for gold-star moisturizing and exfoliating, and using the right products. Stay on the same course and you'll continue to glow.

If you answered mostly c's, your skin's pH is. . .
Too low. Your regular oiliness, breakouts, and sensitivity point to acid overload. Chances are, you're OD'ing on the peeling products (think acids) in an effort to sop up excess grease. And while this type of exfoliation can make for a healthy complexion, your skin is suffering from too much of a good thing. Your mission: Use products in moderation instead of abusing them (and your skin).

(My personal results were: I was able to answer all As with the exception of 1 B.)

[MarenSeattle]

On 8/13/2014 Katluvr58 said:

I just came into this, can I get the Cliff Note version, lol. JK

No! You have to become as confused as the rest of us!! Start slogging through!!

[myshell624]

On 8/13/2014 Harpa said:

Here is that quiz:

Acid Test
Answer these questions to find out where you fall on the pH spectrum.

1. How does your skin feel after cleansing?
a) Soft and smooth
b) Tight and dry
c) Still slightly oily or not thoroughly clean

2. How often do you moisturize your face?
a) At least morning and evening
b) Once a day
c) Never

3. Has your skin become sensitive to products you regularly use, including makeup and creams?
a) No, it feels normal, like always.
b) Once in a while
c) Yes. It seems like it reacts to everything I put on it lately.

4. How often does your skin have dry, flaky, rough patches?
a) Never
b) Sometimes
c) Usually

5. Do you notice that your skin looks duller and has more lines in the morning?
a) No
b) Yes, usually
c) It's a very rare occurrence.

6. Is your skin excessively oily and prone to breakouts (whereas it wasn't in the past)?
a) No
b) Occasionally
c) Yes

7. Does your skin often look red and feel irritated?
a) No
b) It stings only after applying products.
c) Yes

8. Does your skin look plump, moist, and dewy?
a) Almost always
b) Rarely
c) It's plump, but more greasy than dewy.

If you answered mostly b's, your skin's pH is. . .
Too high. Your chronic dryness and wrinkling likely mean your acid mantle is being dismantled—you're too alkaline, baby. With its protective lipids removed, your skin is falling prey to bacteria, UV rays, and harsh ingredients. Take a close look at how (and how often) you're cleansing, scrubbing, and hydrating. You need to make sure that your skin can ward off the damaging factors that are making it look older than it should.

If you answered mostly a's, your skin's pH is. . .
Just right! Your skin (and its pH) live in a shiny, happy place not inhabited by premature aging and wrinkles. Having skin this good isn't an accident, so kudos to you for gold-star moisturizing and exfoliating, and using the right products. Stay on the same course and you'll continue to glow.

If you answered mostly c's, your skin's pH is. . .
Too low. Your regular oiliness, breakouts, and sensitivity point to acid overload. Chances are, you're OD'ing on the peeling products (think acids) in an effort to sop up excess grease. And while this type of exfoliation can make for a healthy complexion, your skin is suffering from too much of a good thing. Your mission: Use products in moderation instead of abusing them (and your skin).

(My personal results were: I was able to answer all As with the exception of 1 B.)

Looks like I'm mostly A's with a few B's so I guess that's good.

[magemay]

Myshell, as Sweet Susie stated above, the ph of your MAP formulation is fine. It's a stable C derivative and because it's a phosphate rather than acid it is recommended for final formulations ranging between 5.5 and 6, depending on the raw ingredient manufacturer.

[magemay]

On 8/13/2014 HappyDaze said:

On 8/13/2014 myshell624 said:

On 8/13/2014 HappyDaze said:

On 8/13/2014 Harpa said:

myshell, I've been reading about your vitamin C quest and your wondering about the proper pH for vitamin C. Since I have had so few problems over the years (well, no problems, really) with the skin things I've tried, I didn't pay much attention to pH. What I learned, though, is that your skin needs to be somewhat acidic in order to fight off bacteria. That's the acid mantle Manuella mentioned.

pH may be "off" in skincare things, if you are experiencing adverse skin problems; i.e., the redness, breakouts, acne, etc.

Since you cannot use L-ascorbic acid, because in order for that to be effective, it needs that lower pH, then just stick with the forms you can use. You said you tried different L-ascorbic Cs, but I'm not sure if you've experimented with different C strengths, and if your reaction is the same. (I have other theories on this, but on reserve.)

I think too many times we (on the BB) think topically, but you can also obtain your quota of C internally. Read the Linus Pauling studies on the benefits of internal C. And if you cannot use it topically, I wouldn't fret. (Unless you are still experimenting with what <em>you</em> can use and wanting to change it for some reason.)

But, not everyone can use every thing. Your own skin should tell you what you need, or what is even feasible.

My skin type can use L-ascorbic acid w/ no problems. I already know (and sometimes think about) the pH of my morning cleanser (which is neutral). Since I have no adverse conditions, I just continue with what I'm using. Same with my moisturizer or whatever else I use. I don't always know what pH those things have, but somewhere I have to trust that my skin pH is what it should be, <em>since there are no visible signs to the contrary.</em>

If you can say <em>that</em> with what you are using, then I think you're on the right track.

I think you missed her point- when vitamin C isn't maintained at the proper pH, it can be ineffective. An infeffective vitamin C will NOT cause you any irritation. She wants to be sure her vitamin C- whichever form she chooses- is at the proper, ideal pH so that it is actual doing what it is suppose to do in terms of supporting/protecting the skin (free radical scavenging, etc). You can not judge whether a vitamin C product is doing anything for you just based on whether or not you have a visible sign of irritation and in fact, you will NOT see any irritation for some types of vitamin C (and for l-ascorbic acid if it is formulated well with other calming/soothing ingredients) and yet it may not be doing anything for you if it isn't at the proper pH and/or has been oxidized due to exposure to light and air, etc.

To simply say if you aren't experiencing irritation that it must be fine and working for you isn't right at all, not in the case of vitamin C anyway.

Yes that is exactly my concern. What's so frustrating is the lack if information about other forms of vitamin c. Most of what I've found is about L-Ascorbic acid and I'm not sure the same applies for other forms.

well I only go by scientific studies and not random information on various beauty sites that have no scientific studies to support their information or claims. I am not saying they are wrong but I would like to know where they are getting the information they are stating and am particularly skeptical when it is a site that promote certain brands or has their own line of products.

But anyway, there are several scientific studies that discuss the other forms of Vitamin C and proper pH and formulation, etc but they are pretty high level science studies with alot of technical jargon most wouldn't understand. That is why I've been posting about the proper pH levels of vitamin C for awhile and am not going to debate it anymore with people because it is tiresome lol and people will continue to say things like yeah but on livestrong it says...and well, I am not going to argue with articles that don't have any scientific studies listed to support their claims. Not saying they are wrong but I want to know where they get their information as I know what information I personally have to refute alot of what gets posted here.

HD, are you referring to only Vitamin C, as in L-Ascorbic Acid, or are you including the derivatives in your statement, such as MAP and SAP or even palmitate?

[myshell624]

On 8/13/2014 magemay said:

Myshell, as Sweet Susie stated above, the ph of your MAP formulation is fine. It's a stable C derivative and because it's a phosphate rather than acid it is recommended for final formulations ranging between 5.5 and 6, depending on the raw ingredient manufacturer.

Thanks magemay:-) My head has been spinning for two days, trying to sort through all the information I've found.

[MarenSeattle]

On 8/13/2014 Sweet Susie said:

The pH strips that I have are pHyrion Papers 1-12 by Micro Essential Laboratories. I looked on Amazon and they are out of the ones I have but they have lots of others that will work fine. Look for general purpose pH papers that have a range from 1-13 and have the color chart for each pH (see example in photo below). You just dip a small piece of the pH paper in the item to be tested, wait a bit and match the color to the pH shown on the color chart. Easy as pie!

The article in Women's Health Mag names a couple of strip brands:

Trimedica Alkamax pH Strips It notes it works better with watery products, may be a little more difficult to determine with cream products.

Phion Diagnostic pH Test This appears to be for INTERNAL pH testing as it says to test in urine or saliva (and notes saliva is the most accurate). This also shows 0.25 increments.

So my question: Is there one specifically for skin care/cosmetic items, or is all pH testing the same? Anybody know?