Beauty

[BellaCarro]

On 1/14/2014 wackers said:

Hope all goes well, Bella and I'll be very interested in hearing your feedback on the whole procedure. BTW, did owndoc ship fairly fast? Guess I just assumed you got it from them because of the .25 mm size.

I also have very dry skin so your experience will be particularly informative for me.

Did not use owndoc. I took my chances on an Amazon roller. Got out my loupe and inspected the needles and they look fine so I used it. Have your serum, moisturizer, or oil ready. My skin feels even more dry afterward. The needles break the barrier that holds in moisture. Need to hydrate inside and out!

[MarenSeattle]

On 1/14/2014 wackers said:

Hope all goes well, Bella and I'll be very interested in hearing your feedback on the whole procedure. BTW, did owndoc ship fairly fast? Guess I just assumed you got it from them because of the .25 mm size.

I also have very dry skin so your experience will be particularly informative for me.

I got mind from owndoc -- don't have a loupe like BellaCarro! :-) That's probably where I'll get my next ones from because I was happy with my first. Comes in a nice little tube. Just be aware it comes from the Czech Republic so it took over a week to arrive.

[LuvMyBoxer]

On 1/14/2014 BellaCarro said:

On 1/14/2014 MarenSeattle said:

On 1/14/2014 BellaCarro said:

On 1/14/2014 wackers said:

What are you going to apply afterwards? Have you decided yet? I am considering rotating between NCN's Vit C and their Green tea serum. I don't feel there would be any downside to taking turns between the two. Lyn mentioned in a recent post that she was considering Isomer's stem genesis which sounds interesting too.

I'm going to prep with 100% Pure's green tea toner. Then I think NCN's copper peptide serum followed a bit later with RHSO.

BC -- what's RHSO? I know I'll go "of course" but I just can't figure it out.

AND - the aloe gel + distilled H2O in a spray bottle for my NuFace was absolutely fabulous! I can't thank you enough for the suggestion!!

Now I'm off to check out 100 Pure's Green Tea toner! :-)

RHSO=Rosehip seed oil. I used the toner tonight and like it. I also bought a moisturizer but did not use it tonight. It had a warning not to use during the day as it has lots of vit A. Since I did the first .25 roll I decided not to risk any irritation. Used copper and an NCN seaweed for firming serum followed by RHSO.

I read that distilled water is not good for micro current....no conductivity. You need water with minerals in it. I don't know if it's true, but I read it somewhere in my research. Also. You can use a serum with peptides prior to use and it is supposed to help with conductivity.

[MarenSeattle]

On 1/14/2014 LuvMyBoxer said:

On 1/14/2014 BellaCarro said:

On 1/14/2014 MarenSeattle said:

On 1/14/2014 BellaCarro said:

On 1/14/2014 wackers said:

What are you going to apply afterwards? Have you decided yet? I am considering rotating between NCN's Vit C and their Green tea serum. I don't feel there would be any downside to taking turns between the two. Lyn mentioned in a recent post that she was considering Isomer's stem genesis which sounds interesting too.

I'm going to prep with 100% Pure's green tea toner. Then I think NCN's copper peptide serum followed a bit later with RHSO.

BC -- what's RHSO? I know I'll go "of course" but I just can't figure it out.

AND - the aloe gel + distilled H2O in a spray bottle for my NuFace was absolutely fabulous! I can't thank you enough for the suggestion!!

Now I'm off to check out 100 Pure's Green Tea toner! :-)

RHSO=Rosehip seed oil. I used the toner tonight and like it. I also bought a moisturizer but did not use it tonight. It had a warning not to use during the day as it has lots of vit A. Since I did the first .25 roll I decided not to risk any irritation. Used copper and an NCN seaweed for firming serum followed by RHSO.

I read that distilled water is not good for micro current....no conductivity. You need water with minerals in it. I don't know if it's true, but I read it somewhere in my research. Also. You can use a serum with peptides prior to use and it is supposed to help with conductivity.

Aaaarrrrrgh! There's so much conflicting info! I could definitely feel the sensations, and at times I could see a little flutter (especially around my eyes) but not sure if it was optimal. That's okay, I'll just use tap water tomorrow, and save the distilled for my green tea and vitamin c concoctions. :-)

Edit to clarify -- I meant I'll just use tap water with the aloe, not tap water, period. :-) I spritz so often I'd rather not use up peptide serums that I'm going to be rinsing right off. Do you think it's the aloe in your MB serum that does the trick -- conductivity-wise?

[lyn in MI]

wackers - Dr. Setterfield recommends the 0.2mm for those with thin skin which is the reason I plan to start with it. He states that those with normal skin can start with the 0.3mm. The topical penetration benefits are twice as much with a 0.3mm (eightfold) compared to a 0.2mm (fourfold). If you have normal skin, you may want to go ahead and start with the 0.3mm. If all goes well with the 0.2mm, I plan to move up to a 0.3mm when it's time to replace it. I need to get a jeweler's loupe, so I can thoroughly inspect the needles. Once a needle becomes bent, it's time to replace it. From what I've read, a roller should last between 3 and 6 months.

I was a bit confused when I read in your post your plans to start with a 2.5mm, which is the reason I asked about it.

[Harpa]

On 1/14/2014 lyn in MI said: MarenSeattle - first, take a look at the photo below, which is one of Dr. Setterfield's case studies...


.

Reading his book has convinced me that dermal rolling with anything over a cosmetic length is a serious choice. There is an entire chapter devoted to parameters and protocols and it includes lists of ingredients to avoid. I found his information regarding acids to be very interesting. He believes that the use of any acid that causes exfoliation, (including glycolic, lactic, malic, citric & tataric) will lead to premature aging and we should opt for enzyme peels in place of acids.

Just want to be clear in that cosmetic skin needling is a method of turning over the skin, prompting the production of collagen. Therefore, acid exfoliation would certainly NOT be used in tandem.

This does not apply to those of us who use acids (glycolics and the like) as our primary method of exfoliation.

Also, want to suggest to younger women (20s, 30s, even 40s) that you probably do not need either exfolition method (unless in the case of acne), since your skin is (in theory) already turning over at its optimal rate.

Thank you to everyone for the continued discussion! (Lyn, thanks so much for sharing the information from the book!)

[lyn in MI]

On 1/14/2014 MarenSeattle said:

On 1/14/2014 lyn in MI said: MarenSeattle - first, take a look at the photo below, which is one of Dr. Setterfield's case studies... © Dr. Lance Setterfield, MD. This individual had treatment for "Lax Skin". She was "55 years old, treated with product for 18 months and a 0.3mm roller for 6 months. (6 months between photographs)"...CUT...

Thanks, Lyn! I've seen that page before (I believe you linked to it) and found it again, but somehow didn't catch this info. I'm already convinced not to roll with a 0.5 more than once a month (I'd already suspected that the edema is what made us go "I look so fresh and plump!"), but I have some serious deep wrinkles so I'd like to at least address those areas monthly. And now cosmetic rolling a few times a week.

That IS interesting about the acids causing premature aging (although I'm past the "premature" part). I'd be happy with an enzyme peel in lieu of the acids -- just need something every once in a while to get that "dead cells gone" look, you know?

Thanks so much again. Before you and BC begain "reporting", I was of the more is better school of thought, and had plans to "graduate" to a 1.5 from the 1.0! Total 180 -- my new matra is "less is more" -- and I'll add "no acids!" to that! ;-)

You're welcome. Yes, her photo has been on websites I've posted links to, however the details have not been included on those sites, which is the reason you didn't catch the info. The details I included under the B4/After are from the case studies in Dr. Setterfield's book. I think the B4/After clearly demonstrates the power of cosmetic needling in combination with anti-aging actives. My understanding is that the only change made in her skin care routine during those last 6 months was the addition of home cosmetic needling with a 0.3mm MTS Derma Roller.

Dr. Setterfield's explanation regarding why we should avoid using acids for exfoliation made sense to me. He explained that they disrupt the first line of skin barrier defense. He wrote, Because they slough off our skin's top layer, AHA's increase vulnerability to UV damage, and sunscreen should always be applied. More importantly, they also disrupt the first line of skin barrier defense and reduce the number of keratinocytes, thus reducing cell-to-cell communication and overall skin function, accelerating the aging process.He recommends enzyme peels (if/when needed), because they only affect the skin surface with breakdown of the bonds between horny cells, facilitating the sloughing of dead skin cells, and leaving the living cells intact.

I've used Dr. Gross Alpha Beta Daily Peel Pads since the spring of '07. I've decided that I will finish up my stash on my hands and body, because they are a no-no with skin needling. I've currently been alternating between them and Blue Plasma.

Oh, I totally get the "more is better" school of thought. I think we've all attended that school, lol.

[Harpa]

On 1/15/2014 lyn in MI said:You're welcome. Yes, her photo has been on websites I've posted links to, however the details have not been included on those sites, which is the reason you didn't catch the info. The details I included under the B4/After are from the case studies in Dr. Setterfield's book. I think the B4/After clearly demonstrates the power of cosmetic needling in combination with anti-aging actives. My understanding is that the only change made in her skin care routine during those last 6 months was the addition of home cosmetic needling with a 0.3mm MTS Derma Roller.

Dr. Setterfield's explanation regarding why we should avoid using acids for exfoliation made sense to me. He explained that they disrupt the first line of skin barrier defense. He wrote, Because they slough off our skin's top layer, AHA's increase vulnerability to UV damage, and sunscreen should always be applied. More importantly, they also disrupt the first line of skin barrier defense and reduce the number of keratinocytes, thus reducing cell-to-cell communication and overall skin function, accelerating the aging process.He recommends enzyme peels (if/when needed), because they only affect the skin surface with breakdown of the bonds between horny cells, facilitating the sloughing of dead skin cells, and leaving the living cells intact.

I've used Dr. Gross Alpha Beta Daily Peel Pads since the spring of '07. I've decided that I will finish up my stash on my hands and body, because they are a no-no with skin needling. I've currently been alternating between them and Blue Plasma.

Oh, I totally get the "more is better" school of thought. I think we've all attended that school, lol.

By sloughing off the top dead layer, (either monthly w/ skin needling or gentle, daily -- with acids, et. al. -- ) you are continually rebuilding it, allowing the new skin cells to emerge, nudging collagen production. There are obviously two schools of thought here. I know I don't just slough off and be done with it. I replace the nutrients and protective barrier with good ingredients. Kind of what everybody does when they use a moisturizer. I can attest to other points, as well, including sunscreen, but I'll opt out of that.

In any event, the two schools of thought are highlighted by the two different doctors' approach to shedding the top layer.

I, personally, have never been in the "more is better" camp!

[lyn in MI]

Harpa - thanksomuch for your input. Yes, there are definitely different schools of thought among the medical profession, as you highlighted above.

eta: I came back to add that based on all I've read thus far, including online articles, clinical studies, as well as Dr. Setterfield's book, Dr. Setterfield appears to have the most conservative approach to skin needling.

[Harpa]

On 1/15/2014 lyn in MI said: Harpa - thanksomuch for your input. Yes, there are definitely different schools of thought among the medical profession, as you highlighted above.

eta: I came back to add that based on all I've read thus far, including online articles, clinical studies, as well as Dr. Setterfield's book, Dr. Setterfield appears to have the most conservative approach to skin needling.

Lyn, this isn't the first time we've crossed our skin care methods and applications! (I keep thinking we're great friends, though, because of our Camaros!)

I just want to point out to any casual reader that lyn has sensitive skin, and I do not. Therefore, it stands to reason that we would be thinking and doing things differently.

Anyway, I would be very interested to hear of your results with the needling approach. And it is always interesting to hear [Setterfield's] others' methods and their conclusions.