topic Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts... in Community Chat

Grammar Lovers and Experts...

Yardlie — Fri, 20 May 2016 15:58:21 GMT

OK, here is a question for you. We got into a discussion about this at a BBQ the other night. My son was going to light the charcoal and then throw the lighter fluid on.

Being a cautious mother, I said, "Do you not think that you should put the lighter fluid on first and then light the charcoal?"

My DIL (who is actually very sweet and was an English major) corrected me by saying that my question should have been, "Do not you think that you should put the lighter fluid on first...?"

My husband chimed in with, "Don't you think you should put the lighter fluid on first works for me."

My DIL said, "That's exactly why, 'Do not you think' is correct. Do not stands for don't."

About that time, I was wishing I had kept my mouth shut.

Just curious...which way would you have phrased the question? Thanks!

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

santorini — Fri, 20 May 2016 15:50:20 GMT

"If I were you, I would apply the lighter fluid first."

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

DoneTryin — Fri, 20 May 2016 15:50:49 GMT

I think I'd just step back before that fire flares up. LOL

I don't know what is correct. I would have used "don't"

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

toria — Fri, 20 May 2016 15:54:00 GMT

I am no English major but I agree with your husband. I don't think the other ways are wrong but in my opinion they are just "stilted English". I know that a lot of people are affecting that way of saying "do you not think....." or do you not know, instead of saying "Why didn't you... or why not put the..... or don't you know....In my opinion your son's way is the most stilted even if it is correct.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

PINKdogWOOD — Fri, 20 May 2016 15:57:43 GMT

@Santorini I'm with you on this one. Good or bad grammar doesn't matter. I'm going with SAFETY FIRST!!!!

Squirk fluid first then light it - STAND BACK! If you don't give the coals a squirk first, how do you think the colas will light???!!!

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

ChynnaBlue — Fri, 20 May 2016 15:59:54 GMT

I believe that she's technically accurate, but modern grammar allows for the way you phrased it. Language evolves. If it didn't, we would all be speaking like characters in Shakespearian plays.

I think the question is moot no matter how you phrase it, though. It seems clear that no, he does not think he should put the lighter fluid on first and then light the charcoal or he would have done it that way.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

ChynnaBlue — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:01:46 GMT

@santorini wrote:
"If I were you, I would apply the lighter fluid first."

Seems like that's the real issue.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

occasionalrain — Fri, 20 May 2016 17:59:02 GMT

DIL is correct, OP is wrong.

Oh no, the OP is right and I, along with DIL, am wrong.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

Nightowlz — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:02:37 GMT

First off I would not use any lighter fluid to light the charcoal. It makes your food taste like it. YUCK!!! Tell him to use an electric charcoal starter. You don't need an fluid.

My grammar is lacking so I won't comment. LOL!!! I would never say it the way your DIL said it. That totally sounds stupid.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

Yardlie — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:05:49 GMT

@PINKdogWOOD wrote:
@santorini I'm with you on this one. Good or bad grammar doesn't matter. I'm going with SAFETY FIRST!!!!

Squirk fluid first then light it - STAND BACK! If you don't give the coals a squirk first, how do you think the colas will light???!!!

That's what I was thinking! I don't like lighting charcoal, which is why I said something. I've seen people in the ER in the past who squirted the fluid on after lighting the charcoal. My brother was a fireman, so my son was taught better.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

Nonametoday — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:10:19 GMT

When one says "don't" or any negative verb usage, it automatically means not to.

Perhaps, the best of all the ways to say it in a positive light and perhaps use the "perhaps, it would be better to..."

Also try not to say "I would ..."

Saying. .... "Do not you think..." turn it around and it says "you do not think.." already wrong.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

WenGirl42 — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:16:53 GMT

@Brinklii wrote:
OK, here is a question for you. We got into a discussion about this at a BBQ the other night. My son was going to light the charcoal and then throw the lighter fluid on.

Being a cautious mother, I said, "Do you not think that you should put the lighter fluid on first and then light the charcoal?"

My DIL (who is actually very sweet and was an English major) corrected me by saying that my question should have been, "Do not you think that you should put the lighter fluid on first...?"

My husband chimed in with, "Don't you think you should put the lighter fluid on first works for me."

My DIL said, "That's exactly why, 'Do not you think' is correct. Do not stands for don't."

About that time, I was wishing I had kept my mouth shut.

Just curious...which way would you have phrased the question? Thanks!

Your DIL has it backwards, actually.

The correct way to ask the question (though formal) is, "Do you not?" It evenually became acceptable more informally to use the contraction in that place (i.e., "Don't you?") even though it meant shifting around the order of the words in the sentence. But splitting the contraction from there to say, "Do not you?" takes it even further from the original, correct form.

So the most correct way to ask is, "Do you not?"

It is acceptable to contract that to, "Don't you?"

But it is just plain wrong to ask, "Do not you?"

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

ChynnaBlue — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:15:49 GMT

@Brinklii wrote:
@PINKdogWOOD wrote:
@santorini I'm with you on this one. Good or bad grammar doesn't matter. I'm going with SAFETY FIRST!!!!

Squirk fluid first then light it - STAND BACK! If you don't give the coals a squirk first, how do you think the colas will light???!!!
That's what I was thinking! I don't like lighting charcoal, which is why I said something. I've seen people in the ER in the past who squirted the fluid on after lighting the charcoal. My brother was a fireman, so my son was taught better.

If safety is the key issue, then why make it difficult with a question?

Just say "It's safer to add the lighter fluid first." Because if it's really a safety issue, then it's not a question and it's not up for discussion.

I work in the training and education field and we tell people what they SHOULD do, because that's the action we want. Telling people what not to do confuses them and gets in the way of doing what needs to be done.

If something critical is happening, people should go through a check list of things TO do. If they're checking off things they should not do first, they'll never get to the list of things they need to be doing. Even if it is a negative, we try to say "Avoid X" instead of "Do not do X."

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

qualitygal — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:16:16 GMT

@Yardlie, I don't care how it's said, the fluid goes on before it's lit. But good luck with that.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

DoneTryin — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:17:12 GMT

Next time, just make reservations & let someone else do the cooking

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

Zita — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:22:44 GMT

@WenGirl42 wrote:
@Brinklii wrote:
OK, here is a question for you. We got into a discussion about this at a BBQ the other night. My son was going to light the charcoal and then throw the lighter fluid on.

Being a cautious mother, I said, "Do you not think that you should put the lighter fluid on first and then light the charcoal?"

My DIL (who is actually very sweet and was an English major) corrected me by saying that my question should have been, "Do not you think that you should put the lighter fluid on first...?"

My husband chimed in with, "Don't you think you should put the lighter fluid on first works for me."

My DIL said, "That's exactly why, 'Do not you think' is correct. Do not stands for don't."

About that time, I was wishing I had kept my mouth shut.

Just curious...which way would you have phrased the question? Thanks!

Your DIL has it backwards, actually.

The correct way to ask the question (though formal) is, "Do you not?" It evenually became acceptable more informally to use the contraction in that place (i.e., "Don't you?") even though it meant shifting around the order of the words in the sentence. But splitting the contraction from there to say, "Do not you?" takes it even further from the original, correct form.

So the most correct way to ask is, "Do you not?"

It is acceptable to contract that to, "Don't you?"

But it is just plain wrong to ask, "Do not you?"

@WenGirl42 Your post is entirely correct. I teach English at the college level (Masters in Englih) and that's what I would say, too.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

Zita — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:23:41 GMT

I meant ENGLISH !

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

Yardlie — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:28:17 GMT

@ChynnaBlue wrote:
I believe that she's technically accurate, but modern grammar allows for the way you phrased it. Language evolves. If it didn't, we would all be speaking like characters in Shakespearian plays.

Lord what fools these mortals be!...Shakespeare (Not that my son is a fool...just foolish, occasionally.

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

WenGirl42 — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:29:11 GMT

@Zita wrote:
I meant ENGLISH !

Haha, awwww!

I had to edit to fix a comma. It's all good!

Re: Grammar Lovers and Experts...

Yardlie — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:32:45 GMT

@ChynnaBlue wrote:
@Brinklii wrote:
@PINKdogWOOD wrote:
@santorini I'm with you on this one. Good or bad grammar doesn't matter. I'm going with SAFETY FIRST!!!!

Squirk fluid first then light it - STAND BACK! If you don't give the coals a squirk first, how do you think the colas will light???!!!
That's what I was thinking! I don't like lighting charcoal, which is why I said something. I've seen people in the ER in the past who squirted the fluid on after lighting the charcoal. My brother was a fireman, so my son was taught better.

If safety is the key issue, then why make it difficult with a question?

Just say "It's safer to add the lighter fluid first." Because if it's really a safety issue, then it's not a question and it's not up for discussion.

I work in the training and education field and we tell people what they SHOULD do, because that's the action we want. Telling people what not to do confuses them and gets in the way of doing what needs to be done.

If something critical is happening, people should go through a check list of things TO do. If they're checking off things they should not do first, they'll never get to the list of things they need to be doing. Even if it is a negative, we try to say "Avoid X" instead of "Do not do X."

Great response! Thank you.