topic Re: Well-behaved women......really? in Community Chat

Well-behaved women......really?

kittymomNC — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:09:58 GMT

I was sitting at a stoplight today and saw the bumper stickers on the car in front of me. One was by Ghandi, but when I saw this one, I forgot what the other one was about!

"Well-behaved women seldom make history."

I was so taken aback I almost forgot to go when the light turned green! That statement can go in so many directions...it depends partly on what your own perception of "well-behaved" means. The Oxford Dictionary says it means: Conducting oneself in an appropriate manner: And then that leads to what is appropriate in any given situation.

There are really well-behaved women who have made historical contributions to society and /or to our country. Then there are middle-of-the-road women, who may not always be SO well-behaved, who have made history as well, and in a good way. And there are women who have no clue what "well-behaved" means, but they've made another kind of "history" in their own way!

I was curious to see what other people take from that statement. I started to say other "women", but then I remembered that we have some gentlemen here, too! All thoughts are welcome!

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

scotttie — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:11:25 GMT

Well, I'm sure Eleanore Roosevelt would be impressed to read that sticker!

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

Preds — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:12:30 GMT

Well behaved women don't make waves. Strong women make currents ... All in how you read it!

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

NoelSeven — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:15:00 GMT

It's a really old phrase from the 2nd wave of feminism.

It means, get out there and do what you need to do, what you want to do. Don't let anyone tell you nice girls don't do things like play sports, join the military, etc.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

kittymomNC — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:15:24 GMT

On 9/19/2014 Preds said:
Well behaved women don't make waves. Strong women make currents ... All in how you read it!

That's a good one! That bumper sticker is liable to cause an accident!

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

NoelSeven — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:16:05 GMT

On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
Well, I'm sure Eleanore Roosevelt would be impressed to read that sticker!

She would have been, she was an early feminist and did what she wanted to do, including her airplane jaunts with Amelia Earhart

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

dooBdoo — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:16:26 GMT

Hi, kittymomNC!

I've learned many of those quotes attributed to Gandhi are misattributed. In fact, I seldom use a quote these days without checking the authenticity first.

Here's some background on the quote itself:

"Laurel Thatcher Ulrich (born July 11, 1938), is a historian of early America and the history of women and a university professor at Harvard University.^[1] Ulrich's innovative and widely influential approach to history has been described as a tribute to "the silent work of ordinary people"—an approach that, in her words, aims to "show the interconnection between public events and private experience."

Writing an article about little-studied Puritan funeral services, Ulrich included the phrase "well-behaved women seldom make history."^[2] The phrase was picked up and soon was widely quoted and printed across the country. It continues to be seen on greeting cards, T-shirts, mugs, plaques, and bumper stickers.

She recounted how her now-famous quote has taken on a life of its own in an October 2007 interview: "It was a weird escape into popular culture. I got constant e-mails about it, and I thought it was humorous. Then I started looking at where it was coming from. Once I turned up as a character in a novel - and a tennis star from India wore the T-shirt at Wimbledon.

It seemed like a teaching moment - and so I wrote a book using the title."^[3] Well-Behaved Women examines the ways in which women shaped history, citing examples from the lives of Rosa Parks, Christine de Pizan, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Harriet Tubman, and Virginia Woolf. ..."

more at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Thatcher_Ulrich

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

adelle38 — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:16:31 GMT

On 9/19/2014 Preds said:
Well behaved women don't make waves. Strong women make currents ... All in how you read it!

That's my interpretation. In this case, well behaved means staying in the boundaries that society sets regardless of whether those boundaries are just.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

NoelSeven — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:17:56 GMT

On 9/19/2014 adelle38 said:
On 9/19/2014 Preds said:
Well behaved women don't make waves. Strong women make currents ... All in how you read it!

That's my interpretation. In this case, well behaved means staying in the boundaries that society sets regardless of whether those boundaries are just.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

scotttie — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:20:04 GMT

On 9/19/2014 NoelSeven said:
On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
Well, I'm sure Eleanore Roosevelt would be impressed to read that sticker!

She would have been, she was an early feminist and did what she wanted to do, including her airplane jaunts with Amelia Earhart

Point being, Eleanor Roosevelt was well behaved.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

dooBdoo — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:23:45 GMT

Here's an interesting article by the woman who coined the phrase.

Ulrich explains that well-behaved women should make history

"... The new book explores how and why it is that women who act in unexpected ways tend to be remembered, while more conventional women fade into the past. Ulrich breaks down the traditional good girl/bad girl stereotypes, and shows that women — and men — who make history are, in fact, multidimensional and should not be constrained by such a polarizing formulation ..."

article at link: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/09/ulrich-explains-that-well-behaved-women-should-make-history/

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

NoelSeven — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:23:57 GMT

On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
On 9/19/2014 NoelSeven said:
On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
Well, I'm sure Eleanore Roosevelt would be impressed to read that sticker!

She would have been, she was an early feminist and did what she wanted to do, including her airplane jaunts with Amelia Earhart

Point being, Eleanor Roosevelt was well behaved.

Not according to her time, she was not. She was greatly disliked by many for her stance, for her feminism, and her outspokenness. She also had her own romances on the side and chose not to live with her husband at times.

THAT was daring and outrageous for her time.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

kittymomNC — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:24:35 GMT

On 9/19/2014 dooBdoo said:
Hi, kittymomNC!

I've learned many of those quotes attributed to Gandhi are misattributed. In fact, I seldom use a quote these days without checking the authenticity first.

Here's some background on the quote itself:

"Laurel Thatcher Ulrich (born July 11, 1938), is a historian of early America and the history of women and a university professor at Harvard University.^[1] Ulrich's innovative and widely influential approach to history has been described as a tribute to "the silent work of ordinary people"—an approach that, in her words, aims to "show the interconnection between public events and private experience."

Writing an article about little-studied Puritan funeral services, Ulrich included the phrase "well-behaved women seldom make history."^[2] The phrase was picked up and soon was widely quoted and printed across the country. It continues to be seen on greeting cards, T-shirts, mugs, plaques, and bumper stickers.

She recounted how her now-famous quote has taken on a life of its own in an October 2007 interview: "It was a weird escape into popular culture. I got constant e-mails about it, and I thought it was humorous. Then I started looking at where it was coming from. Once I turned up as a character in a novel - and a tennis star from India wore the T-shirt at Wimbledon. It seemed like a teaching moment - and so I wrote a book using the title."^[3] Well-Behaved Women examines the ways in which women shaped history, citing examples from the lives of Rosa Parks, Christine de Pizan, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Harriet Tubman, and Virginia Woolf. ..."

more at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Thatcher_Ulrich

Hey dooBdoo, you must be feeling better! I'm glad. I'm also glad I posted this because I knew you ladies (and maybe some gents) would give me lots to learn and think about!

"One was by Ghandi, but when I saw this one, I forgot what the other one was about!"

The one by Ghandi wasn't this quote...sorry if that was confusing - this one just made me forget what the Ghandi one was about - I think the Ghandi one said something like "It's not so important what you do, it's important that you do it." Or something like that, I may be misquoting it. The other one just surprised me because I've never seen it before. I think I'm going to get an education here...

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

QueenDanceALot — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:25:07 GMT

I've seen that on bumper stickers for a long time.

Reading this today made me think of Joan Rivers.

I think of it the same as Preds' interpretation.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

QueenDanceALot — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:26:38 GMT

On 9/19/2014 NoelSeven said:
On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
On 9/19/2014 NoelSeven said:
On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
Well, I'm sure Eleanore Roosevelt would be impressed to read that sticker!

She would have been, she was an early feminist and did what she wanted to do, including her airplane jaunts with Amelia Earhart

Point being, Eleanor Roosevelt was well behaved.

Not according to her time, she was not. She was greatly disliked by many for her stance, for her feminism, and her outspokenness. She also had her own romances on the side and chose not to live with her husband at times.

THAT was daring and outrageous for her time.

Yes, that's right, Noel.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

NoelSeven — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:29:45 GMT

On 9/19/2014 KittyLouWhoToo said:
On 9/19/2014 NoelSeven said:
On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
On 9/19/2014 NoelSeven said:
On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
Well, I'm sure Eleanore Roosevelt would be impressed to read that sticker!

She would have been, she was an early feminist and did what she wanted to do, including her airplane jaunts with Amelia Earhart

Point being, Eleanor Roosevelt was well behaved.

Not according to her time, she was not. She was greatly disliked by many for her stance, for her feminism, and her outspokenness. She also had her own romances on the side and chose not to live with her husband at times.

THAT was daring and outrageous for her time.

Yes, that's right, Noel.

She was also not enamored of being a mother and was very open about that. Another somewhat shocking side of her for the times.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

dooBdoo — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:31:14 GMT

Hey, back acha, kittymom! Still nursing this migraine, looks to be one that's going to stick around for a few days.

Interesting thread!

Reading Ulrich's original quote and context and then her follow-up, once it became a popular quote out of context, is interesting and thought-provoking. Wondering about what we mean by "making history," who we remember, who's been forgotten, why certain history-makers have prominence and others don't, that sort of thing ...

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

scotttie — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:32:36 GMT

On 9/19/2014 NoelSeven said:
On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
On 9/19/2014 NoelSeven said:
On 9/19/2014 scotttie said:
Well, I'm sure Eleanore Roosevelt would be impressed to read that sticker!

She would have been, she was an early feminist and did what she wanted to do, including her airplane jaunts with Amelia Earhart

Point being, Eleanor Roosevelt was well behaved.

Not according to her time, she was not. She was greatly disliked by many for her stance, for her feminism, and her outspokenness. She also had her own romances on the side and chose not to live with her husband at times.

THAT was daring and outrageous for her time.

There is nobody that could pass the "well behaved" appellation then. I guess we have different views on what well behaved means.

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

kittymomNC — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:35:49 GMT

On 9/19/2014 dooBdoo said:
Hey, back acha, kittymom! Still nursing this migraine, looks to be one that's going to stick around for a few days.

Interesting thread!

Reading Ulrich's original quote and context and then her follow-up, once it became a popular quote out of context, is interesting and thought-provoking. Wondering about what we mean by "making history," who we remember, who's been forgotten, why certain history-makers have prominence and others don't, that sort of thing ...

It seems to me that those who make history while not being quite so well-behaved are the ones who have more prominence and are most remembered. It may not be fair, but it often appears to work that way. The previous references to Eleanor Roosevelt would be an example. Someone else might make an even more important contribution, but may not be as well-remembered...

Re: Well-behaved women......really?

NoelSeven — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:36:32 GMT

On 9/19/2014 dooBdoo said:
Hey, back acha, kittymom! Still nursing this migraine, looks to be one that's going to stick around for a few days.

Interesting thread!

Reading Ulrich's original quote and context and then her follow-up, once it became a popular quote out of context, is interesting and thought-provoking. Wondering about what we mean by "making history," who we remember, who's been forgotten, why certain history-makers have prominence and others don't, that sort of thing ...

Hi dooBdoo

The phrase was going around before the book came out. I used to have a list of well behaved women who didn't make it into the history books, many of them scientists and numerous artists. They let the men around them take credit for what they did.

Albert Einstein's first wife was one, he based much of what he did on her work, and the wife of the artist Keane was another.