topic Re: Our dog has bitten- again. in Community Chat

Our dog has bitten- again.

Tzu4u — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:46:42 GMT

I am writing this in sadness. Our 25 lb Boston Terrier has now bitten three people enough to draw blood. This is not counting many nips over the years. He is unpredictable, and his brain sometimes does not work right. He has never been abused in any way, he is just a crabby dog.

http://www.vin.com/vetzinsight/default.aspx?pid=756&catId=5861&id=5912453

This article made me realize I am not the only one out here who is dealing with this. There are over 150 replies to this article. It is amazing what we pet lovers will put up with because we love our animals.

We have our first grandchild coming next month, and I am calling our vet for a consultation on Monday.

Love to hear your thoughts AFTER you read this article. Thanks .

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

lolakimono — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:56:58 GMT

Euthanizing Aggressive Dogs: Sometimes It's the Best Choice

August 12, 2013 (published)

Phyllis DeGioia, editor Veterinary Partner and VetzInsight

When my dog lunged at my face, I fell down the stairs.

I saw him watch me come up the stairs at 12:30 a.m. He seemed fine, but a moment later he went for my face. I pulled back and fell down half a flight of steep stairs. My head ended up in the bottom level of an open-sided end table. Had I hit my head on the top I could have broken my neck and become a quadriplegic like my mother had been.

Or died.

The vet who euthanized him said I looked like I'd been in a bar fight. I cried on her shoulder.

"If he were healthy, you wouldn't be here this morning," she said, and I knew she was right. I have no doubt that ending his life was the right thing to do. This choice - and it didn't feel like a choice, but something I had to do - is not one everyone would make, I know. However, we would all be safer if more people euthanized dogs whose behavior cannot be improved after professional assistance.

I had been working with Dodger for months on his aggression. Three months before that fateful night, my 42-pound, 9-year-old English setter had bitten me three times in two seconds; he left six wounds on my forearm under a sweatshirt after I patted him on his back. I was stunned, but I knew what to do.

He had a thorough medical work up, and went on the anti-anxiety medication clomipramine after no physical cause for his behavior change was found. I called in a certified trainer, a woman highly experienced in dog aggression. When she arrived, she said, "I cannot guarantee he won't bite again."

Dodger seemed to be getting better and although he'd snapped at me a few times he hadn't broken skin. I thought his bite inhibition was back, and that as long as I didn't startle him, it would be okay.

I was utterly wrong.

Being attacked by someone you love is a visceral slam to your gut. For a short while, rational thought is gone. It happens so quickly. Your body shakes, and your heart pounds as the instinctive fight-or-flight response is set off. I cried that night as I iced my face, wishing I could ice half of my body. Being bitten by my own dog was a traumatizing event, a betrayal of trust by a beloved canine who’d always slept on my bed.

Dodger had been anxious enough when he arrived five years ago to wear down a path in the back yard within three days. He'd always been snappy when startled. Exercise was never lacking, as we frequently went to fenced, off-leash dog parks. However, last winter I noticed he was much more anxious than he used to be.

When I started talking to people about him, I realized that many friends have euthanized aggressive dogs, including one who owns a dog training school – and so did one of the training school’s co-owners. Veterinarians too: Years ago, Dr. Teri Oursler brought home a 3-year-old rescued beagle. Every time he had gotten in his former owner's way, she kicked him, and then she kicked him when she shoved him into the kennel. Dr. Oursler consulted with veterinary behaviorists who told her she could not cure Sherman, and that all she could do was improve his behavior and try not to put him in any situation where he could cause harm. Three months later, Sherman attacked her 8-year-old son's foot, leaving eight puncture wounds. It was his fourth bite and by far the most aggressive and unprovoked. Sherman was euthanized.

Eight years later, Dr. Oursler still struggles with the guilt of putting Sherman's needs above the safety of her children.

"I will never forget the sounds of his attack and my child screaming," she said. "He taught me that some animals are wired wrong and cannot be fixed, just like some people. Think of Ted Bundy. Sherman taught me that euthanasia of a severely anxious animal is relief of suffering as much as euthanasia for a physical problem is relief of suffering. He taught me that euthanasia for a behavior problem relieves human suffering as much as animal suffering."

Some aggressive dogs can be helped by a good trainer or veterinary behaviorist, and that is where people should start to work with the dog; getting professional help can make the needed difference. But I now believe strongly that some dogs - like Dodger - aren't wired correctly, and no amount of training or medication can fix broken wiring.

From where I'm sitting, too many people make excuses for repeat offenders, no matter if the cause is medical or otherwise, rather than actually addressing the problem even if it’s escalating. They wait until a disaster transpires. Sometimes they don’t even realize that’s what they’re doing.

What I realized later, through my grief, was that I'd been walking on egg shells around him and that relief was a big part of my emotional response. Mostly it was sadness. In the first few days anger was a large part of it: That he suffered from anxiety, because I could have broken my neck, because I will never again see his stunningly graceful run or watch him help himself to my coffee.

I struggle with his unhappiness despite all my efforts, and I wonder when or if that will ever end. A rip in my soul feels like it might never heal.

In my sadness I turned to Dr. Michele Gaspar, both a veterinarian and human therapist.

"There are some dogs who are mentally ill, either due to genetics, trauma or their development," she said. "I appreciate the effort that people put into understanding them, but some of these dogs just never are normal. I don't think meds would have helped Dodger. Escalating behavior is not good in any species. Dogs should be mentally strong enough not to startle in a home environment."

Dr. Gaspar said she is increasingly intolerant of dogs and cats with behavioral issues, but it seems to her that as a society we try to overcome these issues in pets more than we do with people.

At least I have the comfort that he will never get worse. He won't ever bite anyone else, simply because he can’t. Children can be allowed in my house again, and I won't ever be sued because Dodger hurt someone. Nor will he get turned away by my veterinary clinic because he bites the staff. These are the things I tell myself when I’m trying to feel better. They are not small comforts.

The frightening statistics for dog bites account for a lot of fear and hateful feelings about dogs. Bitten children, the most common victims, often grow up to be afraid of dogs. Bites affect people who work with dogs: boarding kennel operators and pet-sitters, trainers, rescue group volunteers, and veterinary staff. Veterinarians and veterinary technicians receive many of those bites, affecting how they feel about their profession and future clients.

Dr. Beth Ruby discussed her reaction to an aggressive patient on a message board of the Veterinary Information Network:

“In all the years I have worked in a veterinary clinic I have never been bitten in the face (before today). It created a fear I don't think I have ever dealt with. The complete lack of warning from the dog has left me very insecure. I have been bitten and scratched a lot in the last 25 years, but never have I felt so small and vulnerable as I did today. Seeing those teeth coming at your face and having absolutely no control creates an emotional experience that you can't imagine or describe.”

You can’t imagine or describe it, but if you’d lived it, her words ring true.

That day nearly three years ago changed the way Dr. Ruby practices. She has become more cautious during exams. She keeps her head and face at a safer distance, only approaches a dog from the side where she has plenty of opportunity to back off quickly, and uses muzzles more often.

"I am definitely jumpier than I used to be, which can be embarrassing," she said.

What I have never understood, even before Dodger came into my life, was how people could keep dogs who bit people or other animals repeatedly and just live with it. That’s an unacceptable risk. While owners may accept it for themselves, it is immoral for them to accept it for anyone else. I also believe it is wrong to turn the dog over to a shelter or rescue, and even worse not to disclose the truth about aggressive behavior. There’s enough bad stuff in the world that people cannot control; sending along a dog who will hurt someone is a moral failing.

Imagine what you would feel after your aggressive dog mauled a toddler’s face. Imagine what you would feel if a stranger’s dog attacked you or your child. Wouldn’t you wonder, forever, why the dog’s owner didn’t do something about the dog’s escalating behavior when they could have?

I don’t have to wonder about that any more. As I continue to sort through and address my feelings about Dodger, what I could have done and what I finally did, I am secure in knowing that ending his life was the right thing to do.

“Death is the ultimate loss but not the ultimate harm," said Dr. Gaspar. I agree.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Another new name Sue — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:25:53 GMT

I am sorry you are going through this. It's so sad that a pet you love could harm someone. I visit another forum, and someone there is going through the same painful experience--what to do, what to do? Good luck. I think there is a lot of wisdom in that linked article. I'm going to share the link on the other forum.

How old is your terrier?

If you expect baby to be visiting you, for a while there will be no risk as he/she will be mostly in someone's arms or a little bed, but when baby starts to lay on the floor on a blanket, or crawling. That will be a time when your dog could feel very nervous about this new creature.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

jaxs mom — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:40:19 GMT

This has been going on for years, have you worked with a good professional dog trainer at all during this time? Are you choosing to euthanize because you've been threatened with lack of access to your grandkids? Very few dogs can't be rehabilitated from prior biting incidents but it isn't going to go away on it's own.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

okBlonde — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:55:18 GMT

I'm sure I will be the unpopular opinion here, but I would never get rid of any of my pets for any reason other than an illness like cancer, kidney disease, etc. Back in the mid-80's my brother and his wife (now ex-wife thankfully!) had a baby. They refused to come over to my mom's (and my) house to visit unless we put our mini schnauzer in another room. My dog won.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Tzu4u — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:55:34 GMT

I AM a professional. I have been showing and grooming dogs since I was 15. (I am 60) I own and operate a pet grooming/boarding business, and have trained dogs and helped others with problem dogs over the years.

This article, and the incredible number of heartbteaking responses, made me realize some dogs are just not fixable. I am just sad that one of them is mine. I have always brushed it off because he is not a big dog, but that is not a good enough explanation/excuse anymore.

The latest bite was our neighbor's 7 year old son. He drew blood, and was about 2" away from the boy's testicles. The neighbors are a young couple (with a dog) and were unbelievably nice about it. I would have been furious if it had happened to our daughter when she was little. I am no longer going to keep a dog I cannot trust. He is 13, and acts and looks like he is 5. I love this dog, and have given him every benefit of the doubt. He has had a wonderful, healthy life. he has been a grumpy guy since he was a pup.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

jaxs mom — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 21:58:30 GMT

I'm talking about a professional dog behaviorist and trainer. Showing and grooming doesn't make someone a professional dog trainer or behaviorist with experience in rehabilitating dogs that bite.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Jingles5 — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:02:34 GMT

Wadzilla, I think you'll make the right choice.

I had a friend with a very similar situation. After various bouts with the ER and heavy doses of antibiotics as a result of injuries from a pet she loved, she ultimately chose euthanasia. It was incredibly sad, traumatic and emotional, but for the best.

God bless.

ETA: I should have mentioned this. At the time she was going through this, she too read stories shared by other heartbroken pet owners who had been in similar tragic situations. It was eye opening to read them.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Tzu4u — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:41:55 GMT

On 6/21/2014 jaxs mom said:
I'm talking about a professional dog behaviorist and trainer. Showing and grooming doesn't make someone a professional dog trainer or behaviorist with experience in rehabilitating dogs that bite.

I work on a daily basis with dogs that bite. My spare time is spent with the 4 rescue groups I am involved with, two of these work exclusively with pit bulls. I know how to stop a dog from biting, how to pry open a dog's jaws when they will not release, and how to predict a bite. I have broken up many dog fights. I have been involved with dogs & dog people my whole life, My friends are dog trainers, rescuers and behaviorists. That is what we do. And, I still have a dog that I cannot trust.

Please read the article, and the responses. I am very sad.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

colliemom4 — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:47:01 GMT

I have a friend that has several chihuhuas she's had for years. She adopted another little dog that kept picking on one of them so bad that the new dog almost killed one, and bit my friend several times too, so she had the dog she adopted put to sleep. She cried over the decison for weeks and it still bothers her but she thought it was best.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Mominohio — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:53:12 GMT

On 6/21/2014 jaxs mom said:
I'm talking about a professional dog behaviorist and trainer. Showing and grooming doesn't make someone a professional dog trainer or behaviorist with experience in rehabilitating dogs that bite.

This isn't something available to everyone based on location and finances. It is great if you can do it, but never a guarantee that it will fix the problem.

OP, you have a very heartbreaking decision, but before anyone is more seriously hurt, you have to follow your gut with this one, and not let your heart rule. I'm so sorry this is happening, as we know pets like this aren't evil, they are either victims of abuse or not mentally stable, neither of which is within their control, and it is so sad.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Tzu4u — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:53:22 GMT

On 6/21/2014 Jingles5 said:
Wadzilla, I think you'll make the right choice.

I had a friend with a very similar situation. After various bouts with the ER and heavy doses of antibiotics as a result of injuries from a pet she loved, she ultimately chose euthanasia. It was incredibly sad, traumatic and emotional, but for the best.

God bless.

ETA: I should have mentioned this. At the time she was going through this, she too read stories shared by other heartbroken pet owners who had been in similar tragic situations. It was eye opening to read them.

Thank you.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Lilysmom — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 23:11:57 GMT

Wadzlla, I read the article. It's a tough situation. I grew up with a big fear of dogs. I have been attacked twice ... Once by a German Shepard and once by a Doberman. Both were terrifying experiences for me and I keep my distance from these breeds even today by instinct. My husband and I have owned Labs for 30 years so I have come a long way almost conquering my fear. We mourn the loss of our dogs as we would mourn the loss of a family member so I understand your close connection with your pet. It seems to me that, as dogs age, any aggressive tendencies seem to become more pronounced rather than less. I wonder what the parents of your grandchild would have to say about the situation. If it were me, I would euthanize the dog for fear that the child would be harmed. There is no easy way to sugarcoat it I'm afraid. There is the physical damage that can be caused by a bite or something worse. Equally as debilitating is the emotional fear the child would carry through his/her life from such an attack. I speak from personal experience. My best wishes to you, Wadzlla. God bless. LM

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

CamilleP — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 00:56:18 GMT

I am so sorry your Boston has become a danger to all around him, but I concur with your decision. I did Rescue for my breed for many years, and had to euthanise two dogs who were surrendered to me, one had Rage Epilepsy, which the owner's niece, who surrendered him when her uncle had a stroke and went into a nursing home, did not realize. The other was surrendered with no mention at all of his propensity for unprovoked biting, and I was lucky I prevented the first bite he attempted on a passerby on the sidewalk, or I'd have been liable in a lawsuit. When one has a dog in their care who is so unpredictable and dangerous as to bite and draw blood, if management (crating, isolation, confinement) can't insure safety, then euthanasia is the final option. If they could talk and tell us what is wrong, we'd be able to help them, but we can't, so sometimes, we have to opt for that final option. You have my deep sympathy!

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Bird mama — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 01:09:25 GMT

Wadzilla, I am sorry that you find yourself in this position. I may be in the bird phase of my life now, but my prior companions were dogs.

I guess I look at it this way - the risk of your dog biting someone who will not be understanding is high. If that happens and it's reported, the authorities will take your dog into quarantine, heaven knows where for heaven knows how long. The end result could be euthanasia, done their way.

I don't say any of this lightly, my heart is pounding in my chest for you. You know your little Boston Terrier better than anyone. You have extensive life experience with dogs. You've given your little one a good life. You are in the position to assure him a good death, your way, in a calm environment with a veterinarian familiar to your little one.

God Bless You -

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Tzu4u — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 02:31:28 GMT

On 6/21/2014 CamilleP said:
I am so sorry your Boston has become a danger to all around him, but I concur with your decision. I did Rescue for my breed for many years, and had to euthanise two dogs who were surrendered to me, one had Rage Epilepsy, which the owner's niece, who surrendered him when her uncle had a stroke and went into a nursing home, did not realize. The other was surrendered with no mention at all of his propensity for unprovoked biting, and I was lucky I prevented the first bite he attempted on a passerby on the sidewalk, or I'd have been liable in a lawsuit. When one has a dog in their care who is so unpredictable and dangerous as to bite and draw blood, if management (crating, isolation, confinement) can't insure safety, then euthanasia is the final option. If they could talk and tell us what is wrong, we'd be able to help them, but we can't, so sometimes, we have to opt for that final option. You have my deep sympathy!

Thank you. This is very hard. As a rescuer, this is not the option I easily choose. Your words mean a lot to me.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

nagrom — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 02:31:33 GMT

I did read the article you posted. In the first case the dog bit three times in two seconds sounding like more than one location on the forearm. Has yours done that too? I am suggesting that you look online for levels of dog bite. There may be some that give six levels or seven levels. Each level describes the extent of the bite. For the highest level is death, next to highest level is severe injury in more than one body part and deeper than 1/2 inch. See where your dog fits in comparison. If your dog is not biting deeper than 1/4 inch in one location, you might be able to figure what is the trigger or if it is idiopathic. If you are looking for professionals to help you, check online website APDT and enter in your zipcode. You need a behaviorist and not just a trainer. These are the certified trainers that are experienced in dog aggression. Most of the time there are signals that dogs give warning of a problem but most owners are not aware or fast enough to see them before the dog acts out. I think the websites listed here may really give you enough information to sort out what you will do. Also in the past when your dog did bite try to remember exactly what depth of bite and what location. Has the dog moved from one level of bite to another. Professional behaviorists determine after the dog reaches a particular level if he can be controlled or if it has reached a level beyond human intervention. Btw APDT stands for Association of Professional Dog Trainers and is world wide positive reinforcement trainers as well as many behaviorists and vets. Vet schools and humane societies as well as trainers send their staff to their seminars to assist in teaching and handling difficult dogs.

Good luck and know when you have made your decision that it was the best or may be for the best. It is always hard when dogs are part of your life and family. I too have had dogs that bit. Our first dog when I was six bit my sister in the face when she tried to clear the kitchen table after a meal. He went on to bite several people and in more than one body part. He was euthanized and rightfully so. All the other dogs that followed were just fine and had no other bad experiences. We tend to think it was something we did wrong or could be an undiagnosed illness. Why do we blame ourselves? Simply we are human. Dogs are not. We judge the standard by human behavior. Different species have other standards. Once we learn some of the other normal standards we can understand and move on. Turid Rugaas has a booklet out and several videos that are easy to understand and learn on how dogs interpret our actions. Her book and videos are "Calming Signals" . There are many other good books out there but it helps us understand what dogs are communicating with us and other dogs too.

Please update when you can. As humans we are concerned and want what is best for our family and pets.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

CrazyDaisy — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:42:08 GMT

Almost every dog with an issue can be trained or managed to allow them as well a their family to live safely and happily together. Given the fact the OP claims to have ""put up with this behavior"" and ""given the benefit of a doubt"" for years indicates little effort has been made to get to the bottom of the problem. Sadly it is always the animal who suffers.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

gardenman — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 13:16:56 GMT

There are mentally ill people who will attack without provocation and there are similar issues in animals including domesticated animals. Some people ascribe god-like qualities to animals and assume everything is the fault of the owner, but in reality there are dogs that have a mental makeup that makes them more prone to biting. There are some dogs who will never bite no matter the provocation and there are some dogs who will bite reflexively and without hesitation for no apparent reason and with no warning.

I think the easy answer in this case is to have one of those here who's sure they can train the dog out of biting to adopt the dog and assume responsibility for it. The dog gets a good home, they get a chance to prove they're right, and everyone lives happily ever after. If nothing else it may very well teach the new owner that not every issue is the fault of the owner and that not every issue can be trained out of a dog, or is the fault of an unobservant owner. It's a win win situation. The dog lives and they get to prove their point, or the dog gets to bite someone new and perhaps teach them a thing or two.

Re: Our dog has bitten- again.

Another new name Sue — Sun, 22 Jun 2014 18:30:49 GMT

On 6/21/2014 nagrom said:
I did read the article you posted. In the first case the dog bit three times in two seconds sounding like more than one location on the forearm. Has yours done that too? I am suggesting that you look online for levels of dog bite. There may be some that give six levels or seven levels. Each level describes the extent of the bite. For the highest level is death, next to highest level is severe injury in more than one body part and deeper than 1/2 inch. See where your dog fits in comparison. If your dog is not biting deeper than 1/4 inch in one location, you might be able to figure what is the trigger or if it is idiopathic. If you are looking for professionals to help you, check online website APDT and enter in your zipcode. You need a behaviorist and not just a trainer. These are the certified trainers that are experienced in dog aggression. Most of the time there are signals that dogs give warning of a problem but most owners are not aware or fast enough to see them before the dog acts out. I think the websites listed here may really give you enough information to sort out what you will do. Also in the past when your dog did bite try to remember exactly what depth of bite and what location. Has the dog moved from one level of bite to another. Professional behaviorists determine after the dog reaches a particular level if he can be controlled or if it has reached a level beyond human intervention. Btw APDT stands for Association of Professional Dog Trainers and is world wide positive reinforcement trainers as well as many behaviorists and vets. Vet schools and humane societies as well as trainers send their staff to their seminars to assist in teaching and handling difficult dogs.

Good luck and know when you have made your decision that it was the best or may be for the best. It is always hard when dogs are part of your life and family. I too have had dogs that bit. Our first dog when I was six bit my sister in the face when she tried to clear the kitchen table after a meal. He went on to bite several people and in more than one body part. He was euthanized and rightfully so. All the other dogs that followed were just fine and had no other bad experiences. We tend to think it was something we did wrong or could be an undiagnosed illness. Why do we blame ourselves? Simply we are human. Dogs are not. We judge the standard by human behavior. Different species have other standards. Once we learn some of the other normal standards we can understand and move on. Turid Rugaas has a booklet out and several videos that are easy to understand and learn on how dogs interpret our actions. Her book and videos are "Calming Signals" . There are many other good books out there but it helps us understand what dogs are communicating with us and other dogs too.

Please update when you can. As humans we are concerned and want what is best for our family and pets.

Dog bite levels? Well, this may be a legitimate way of looking at the issue, but it sounds silly to me. Any dog that bites could bite at any level.

Another comment--remember the viral video of the cat body-slamming the dog who was attacking the little boy? If not for the cat, that dog could have severely injured the child. The dog owners may have known that he was aggressive but were not careful enough to keep him contained. So any dog who bites is a risk no matter how careful people are. Things happen.

My Westie does not bite, but if my toddler grandkids are petting him, I'm right there to make sure the dog doesn't get nervous and the kids are gentle.