topic Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria? in Community Chat

Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

drizzellla — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 20:06:31 GMT

I was reading an article about a lady who baked a cake for her sisters and their families. The cake was poisoned.

Two sisters died and a niece died.

Rio Grande do Sul Civil Police are analyzing traces of the toxic metal arsenic that were found in the victims' blood.

It also stated "investigators are also looking into the possibility that bacteria-laden raisins and other spoiled foods used as a cake topping after a power-cut could be linked to the fatal poisonings."

The raisins were in the cake batter. So wouldn't cooking the batter kill the bacteria on the raisins? The icing was all white and smooth so the raisins were not used in the icing.

I am sure that the police have to cover all angles of this sick woman's crime. But maybe I am putting too much faith into cooking killing bacteria.

We make an applesauce cake once in awhile. I never thought about the raisins having bacteria. We open the container of raisins and you always have raisins left over. So the raisins just sit until the next time we make another applesauce cake. Never thought of them having bacteria growing on them.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

haddon9 — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 20:16:12 GMT

I think it depends on the bacteria. Some will die off but it also depends on the temperature and the length of time.

That s a crazy story!

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

Kachina624 — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 20:20:20 GMT

@drizzellla. There a big difference between bacteria which is an organism and a poison like arsenic which is an element found in minerals so isn't alive and can't be killed.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

SilleeMee — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 20:29:40 GMT

Cooking does kill most bacteria but some survive and if the food is left out at room temp then the bacteria can grow back in numbers high enough to do harm. Besides that, bacteria from other sources can be introduced into food after cooking and that can also be a problem.

Cooking will not deactivate toxins produced by bacteria in food. Toxins, for instance botulism toxin and staph toxin, can't be destroyed by heat from cooking.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

MorningLover — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 20:39:31 GMT

The Christmas cake, pictured, eaten by the three women before they died.

What is in a Christmas Cake?

A Christmas cake is a rich cake traditionally served without any decoration or just garnished with candied fruits.

It is often mistaken for the Portuguese King Cake, a yeast sweet cake.

The Brazilian recipe uses cane sugar and has icing over the top with the candied fruits.

The ingredients for this cake are butter, eggs, brown sugar, orange juice or milk, range zest, Port wine, flour, baking powder, ground cinnamon, nutmeg, black raisins and exotic candied fruit cut into small cubes.

Source: saborbrasil.it

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

SilleeMee — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 20:41:58 GMT

Could have been the frosting, too. That doesn't get baked.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

MorningLover — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 20:53:42 GMT

People.com: 3 Family Members Die After Eating Homemade Christmas Cake — Sparking New Investigation into Death of the Baker’s Husband

The husband of the woman who prepared the cake died from food poisoning months earlier.

According to local news outlet, Brazil's Civil Police are running tests to confirm the cause of death for the three women.

The outlet reported that initial laboratory tests found arsenic was present in their bodies.

The discovery has now prompted police to reopen an investigation into the death of Zeli’s late husband, Paolo Luiz.

His death from food poisoning in September wasn’t investigated because it was considered natural.

"As we became aware of this fact today, we opened a police investigation and we are going to exhume this man's body to check whether there was also poisoning," Detective Marcos Vinícius Velho, who is leading the investigation, told the outlet..

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

Nightowlz — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 20:55:53 GMT

AI online says this about raisins.

Why Raisins Aren't a Primary Concern for Bacterial Contamination:
Raisins are dried fruits, and the drying process significantly reduces the water activity (aw), making them less hospitable to bacterial growth.
Raisins contain natural compounds with antimicrobial properties, such as oleanolic acid and linoleic acid, which inhibit bacterial growth.
Studies have shown that raisins do not typically contain harmful bacteria like E. coli or Salmonella.

I wonder if she might have used some of the recalled eggs? Something in the flour?

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

Icegoddess — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 21:18:36 GMT

@NightowlzCooking the flour would kill anything in it. That's the method given for making edible cookie dough. You heat the flour in the oven for a bit, not anywhere near what it would take to bake a cake.

I looked up about cooking killing bacteria recently. I have a thing about veggies cooking in the "juices" of meat whether it be chicken or beef. Blech! Yet, there are many recipes that do just that, so I wanted to know if it was really safe. Apparently, it is, but I'll still cook my veggies separately. My mother used to put a roast in the oven before we left for Church on Sundays, but she cooked the veggies in foil in the oven with the roast. That's the way I like my veggies, not swimming in liquid. I wouldn't say it's because my mother did it that way. There were several things she cooked I didn't like at all, like pork chops. I never knew I liked them until I experienced them away from home. And her hamburgers looked like sausge patties by the time she got done with them.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

Nightowlz — Mon, 30 Dec 2024 21:37:56 GMT

@Icegoddess

Seems like I learn something new most times I see what's going on here?

I've always thought as long as you cook it long enough it will be fine. I keep telling DH if it's not cooked to temp I'm not eating it.

Making pot roast tomorrow. We have some colder weather moving in with even colder temps end of week into next week. We haven't really had a winter yet.

I start the pot roast in dutch oven on the stove. I finish it in the oven. I put the veggies in couple hours before the roast is tender. DH doesn't want mushy potatoes or carrots. I do the same when I make beef soup or stew.

My dad made really good hamburgers on the grill.

We make pork chops quite a bit. I like them with olive oil, salt, pepper & thyme, bbq or Penzey's Bavarian seasoning.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

geegerbee — Tue, 31 Dec 2024 00:29:20 GMT

Since the baker's husband also died from arsenic poisoning some months before, I would guess some arsenic was added to their food and the cake wasn't the killer.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

CamilleP — Tue, 31 Dec 2024 02:54:58 GMT

@SilleeMee is correct, not all bacterial toxins are heat labile. Also, while bacterial vegetative cells are killed by heat, bacterial endospores need a much higher heat level to be killed. I worked over 30 years in a university department of microbilogy. The standard temperature everything had to reach inside the autoclave to be sterile was 121 degrees Celsius, and it had to be maintained at that level for at least 15 minutes. To get to that temperature (above boiling) the autoclave uses pressurized steam to 15 pounds per square inch. Think giant pressure cooker. To sterilize dry materials, like glass pipettes, I baked them in ovens at 350 degrees Fahrenheit OVERNIGHT. So baking a cake is very, very unlikely to kill bacterial endospores. Any bacterial that produce either spores or toxins are easy culprits to cause food-borne illness, and depending on the level of contamination and the causative organism, that can range from some mild nausea and a case of the "green apple quickstep" to death from rapid, acute kidney failure, toxin-induced paralysis, or any number of other actual causes. Before I would conclude these women, or the husband, died of either food-borne illness or arsenic poisoning I would want to know what symptoms they displayed, as well as how much arsenic was in their systems. Odds are that many people have a little arsenic in them, if they eat a lot of rice, for instance, so how much these people had "on board:" would be critical information. The news reports I've seen in this thread are far from complete enough to draw a conclusion.

So, long story short, "cooking" may or may not kill bacteria or bacterial products.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

Venezia — Tue, 31 Dec 2024 04:10:29 GMT

If the police have the cake (pictured), they can easily test that for any possible cause of food poisoning.

But the husband, then the sisters and a niece? Arsenic?

I don't think they'll have to look far for the cause. Now they need to find the motive. It's usually money!

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

Still Raining — Tue, 31 Dec 2024 13:31:02 GMT

Just had to google, arsenic has no taste or odor. On your mark, get set,........

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

skatting44 — Tue, 31 Dec 2024 15:48:30 GMT

Did she have mice in her home- did she have rat poison laying out ? Weird, too coincidental , makes one think something was off with the person who made the cake.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

Venezia — Tue, 31 Dec 2024 20:54:24 GMT

I think the pertinent question is (and I'm sure the authorites are asking it): did she eat anything of what killed her husband and did she eat any of the cake that killed the three women?

Hmmm.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

confetti betty — Tue, 31 Dec 2024 21:03:56 GMT

Such a great answer!

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

confetti betty — Tue, 31 Dec 2024 21:07:38 GMT

Such a great answer.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

drizzellla — Wed, 01 Jan 2025 03:44:31 GMT

@Venezia wrote:
I think the pertinent question is (and I'm sure the authorites are asking it): did she eat anything of what killed her husband and did she eat any of the cake that killed the three women?

Hmmm.

The haunting six words that a Brazilian woman said after guests tucked into her poisoned Christmas cake that later killed three people have been revealed.

The surviving three family members who consumed the tainted desert during the holidays reportedly noticed that it had an 'unusual' taste, according to police reports after a homicide investigation was launched.

The victims, including Zeli dos Anjos, who baked the cake, took several bites and found that it had a 'spicy' flavor, as the family gathered for an afternoon coffee on December 23, Rio Grande do Sul Civil Police Chief Marcos Veloso told RBS TV.

Dos Anjos, 60, stopped eating the traditional holiday pastry, known as 'Bolo do Natal,' while her loved ones complained about it before they all fell sick.

After multiple guests voiced their concerns at the flavor, the woman reportedly put her hand over the cake, and uttered the words: 'No one will eat it anymore.'

Police Chief Veloso explained that some of dos Anjos' loved ones were not too fond of trying out the cake - and only did so out of respect.

'According to some testimonies, there were people who didn't even want to eat, but so as not to be rude to her [Zeli], who is considered a very affectionate person with her family, they ended up eating,' Veloso said.

"Zeli (made the cake) and her 10-year-old great nephew Mateus were also taken ill and rushed to hospital in Torres near Porto Alegre in southern Brazil where they are in a stable condition.

Zeli's brother-in-law Joao and her late husband Paolo are brothers who married two sisters. Joao was married to Zeli's sister Neuza, who died in the tragedy along with their daughter Tatiana.

Re: Doesn't cooking kill bacteria?

Venezia — Wed, 01 Jan 2025 05:44:21 GMT

Did you know that someone can eat a tiny amount of arsenic every day to build up a tolerance? Then a dose that would kill someone else, can be consumed by the person ingesting it daily with no effect. (Or make that person "ill" without it being fatal.)

Sorry, but it all sounds suspicious to me. Either it was deliberate (the husband, then the relatives) or she's the worst cook in the world. I mean, what is she using for ingredients? I don't buy the raisin bacteria story. Did she use bad raisins in what she fed her husband, too?

It will be interesting, if there's any follow-up to the new investigation into the husband's death.