topic AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption in Community Chat

AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

MorningLover — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:39:57 GMT

CNBC: Major U.S. airline CEOs warn 5G could ground some planes, wreak havoc

The chief executives of major U.S. passenger and cargo carriers on Monday warned of an impending “catastrophic” aviation crisis on Wednesday when AT&T and Verizon are set to deploy new 5G service.

The airlines warned the new C-Band 5G service could potentially make a significant number of widebody aircraft unusable and “could potentially strand tens of thousands of Americans overseas.”

“Unless our major hubs are cleared to fly, the vast majority of the traveling and shipping public will essentially be grounded,” wrote the chief executives of American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, United Airlines, Southwest Airlines and others.

The FAA has warned that potential interference could affect sensitive airplane instruments such as altimeters and impact on low-visibility operations.

“This means that on a day like yesterday, more than 1,100 flights and 100,000 passengers would be subjected to cancellations, diversions or delays,” it cautioned.

Action is urgent, they added in the letter also signed by UPS Airlines, Atlas Air, JetBlue Airways and FedEx Express. “To be blunt, the nation’s commerce will grind to a halt.”

The letter went to White House National Economic Council director, Transportation Secretary, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator and Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Chairwoman.

Airlines for America, the group that organized the letter, declined to comment. The government agencies did not immediately comment.

AT&T and Verizon, which won nearly all of the C-Band spectrum in an $80 billion auction last year, on Jan. 3 agreed to buffer zones around 50 airports to reduce interference risks and take other steps to cut potential interference for six months.

They also agreed to delay deployment for two weeks until Wednesday, temporarily averting an aviation safety standoff.

The CEOs of major airlines and Boeing Chief Executive Dave Calhoun held a lengthy call with Transportation Secretary and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator, on Sunday to warn of the looming crisis, officials told Reuters.

The airlines ask “that 5G be implemented everywhere in the country except within the approximate 2 miles (3.2 km) of airport runways” at some key airports.

“Immediate intervention is needed to avoid significant operational disruption to air passengers, shippers, supply chain and delivery of needed medical supplies.”

The airlines added that flight restrictions will not be limited to poor weather operations. “Multiple modern safety systems on aircraft will be deemed unusable causing a much larger problem than what we knew... Airplane manufacturers have informed us that there are huge swaths of the operating fleet that may need to be indefinitely grounded.”

The carriers added they urge action to ensure “5G is deployed except when towers are too close to airport runways until the FAA can determine how that can be safely accomplished without catastrophic disruption.”

The FAA said on Sunday it had cleared an estimated 45% of the U.S. commercial airplane fleet to perform low-visibility landings at many airports where 5G C-band will be deployed starting on Wednesday. The airlines noted on Monday that the list did not include many large airports.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

on the bay — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:05:43 GMT

This sounds like something out of a science fiction movie!

I read it all but couldn't understand if this would be a temporary disruption or permanent if the 5g was launched too close to the airports?

And since officials know about it, is it not supposed to happen?

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

maximillian — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:06:30 GMT

It does sound serious. My question is: why is this getting serious publicity just now? It sounds like officials have known about the potential problems for some months.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

millieshops — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:12:47 GMT

I understand enough so that I think one piece of technological advancement turns out to have potentially catastrophic consequences too many other tech scientists didn't anticipate, didn't imagine, didn't something.

I don't know enough of the science to understand what all the involved branches of our lives have to change to make us safe. I am hoping those who do understand can figure this out --- yesterday would have been nice.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

riley1 — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:21:25 GMT

This isn't something that was just sprung on us. It is something that has been in the works for a long time. In fact, my security system was upgraded months ago in preparation for 5G coming.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

phoenixbrd — Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:13:50 GMT

The controversy around 5G in long standing. No surprise to government.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

Jersey Born — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:43:23 GMT

This is a very serious issue @MorningLover. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. has been trying to stop the rollout due to this issue amongst many others. We are about to learn what will happen when this new EMF wavelength is rolled out everywhere across the US, despite the knowledge and safety concerns of many health experts regarding the likelihood of harm to sensitive airplane equipment and to our sensitive, human biological systems. I am praying for all of us.

Why hasn't this been mentioned by the media until now? Imagine if millions of people were aware of the known harms and had protested actively against 5G. That could have been a problem for industry. The media kept silent so the public would not know about the concerns or about the potential for grave harms until it was too late to stop the rollout of 5G. Does quicker internet service matter more than dramatically increased cancer rates in our population? Not to me, it doesn't.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

proudlyfromNJ — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:38:54 GMT

We had discussions about this on these forums when this info first came out so obviously people knew about it then. I even remember commenting.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

Foxxee — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:12:13 GMT

Typical. Although, I have been hearing about 5G for a long time, it's only recently about the dangers to the airlines. How did it get this far?

Things are covered up until they are caught, then those involved either try to cover up more or try to turn it into a positive even though some of us can see right through them.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

goldensrbest — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:07:05 GMT

This has been in the news for weeks.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

MorningLover — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:11:42 GMT

What is 5G?

5G is the 5th generation mobile network. It is a new global wireless standard after 1G, 2G, 3G, and 4G networks. 5G enables a new kind of network that is designed to connect virtually everyone and everything together including machines, objects, and devices.

5G wireless technology is meant to deliver higher multi-Gbps peak data speeds,ultra low latency, more reliability, massive network capacity, increased availability, and a more uniform user experience to more users. Higher performance and improved efficiency empower new user experiences and connects new industries.

Who invented 5G?

No one company or person owns 5G, but there are several companies within the mobile ecosystem that are contributing to bringing 5G to life.

*To understand 5G, it’s helpful to understand what came before it.

Broadly, the first generation of mobile technology, 1G, was about voice—the ability to use a phone in a car, or away from home really took root here.

The advent of 2G introduced a short-messaging layer—pieces of which can still be seen in today’s texting features.

The move to 3G provided the core network speeds needed to launch smartphones.

And 4G, with its high data-transfer rates, gave us video with minimal buffering and gave rise to many of the connected devices and services that we rely on and enjoy today.

Now, people are beginning to experience 5G and its transformative capabilities. ~ Verizon

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

jackthebear — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 16:08:16 GMT

@maximillian wrote:
It does sound serious. My question is: why is this getting serious publicity just now? It sounds like officials have known about the potential problems for some months.

5G has been in the public eye for at least a year, and now the airlines raise concerns.

not saying the issues should be dismissed but there has been plenty of time to look into it

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

BlueFinch — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 17:43:49 GMT

Now the networks are blaming the airlines for not preparing. They're voluntarily holding back on the 5G in certain areas to review issues.

For over two years, all we've heard about is 5G taking over. As it opens up, suddenly there's a bag of worms?

Is this simply a case of procrastination in adequately preparing, or are there issues that weren't anticipated, which is being suggested? Really? Not expected? Either case is baffling and disappointing.

We should expect more from those 'improving' our technology. We should never have fears that it places us in danger. Oh well...

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

Snoopp — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 17:51:12 GMT

@maximillian wrote:
It does sound serious. My question is: why is this getting serious publicity just now? It sounds like officials have known about the potential problems for some months.

I wondered about this as well. At least in terms of the effect on piloting aircraft. Was this discovered fairly recently?

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

ROMARY — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 17:57:50 GMT

'Who's minding the store, anyway?'..........

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

MorningLover — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:27:46 GMT

Just in - January 18, 2022,

ABC NEWS: Verizon, AT&T delay 5G rollout around some airports after stark warnings from US airlines

A showdown between the nation's major airlines, the FAA and AT&T and Verizon appears to be cooling after both telecom giants agreed at the last minute to pause a portion of their 5G-C rollout on Wednesday.

"At our sole discretion we have voluntarily agreed to temporarily defer turning on a limited number of towers around certain airport runways as we continue to work with the aviation industry and the FAA to provide further information about our 5G deployment," AT&T said in a statement Tuesday.

Verizon followed AT&T saying, "We have voluntarily decided to limit our 5G network around airports. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and our nation's airlines have not been able to fully resolve navigating 5G around airports, despite it being safe and fully operational in more than 40 other countries."

CEOs from American, United, Delta and seven other major carriers warned of "significant" disruptions in the country's aviation system if the 5G rollout continued as planned.

Aviation officials are concerned that the frequency used for 5G may interfere with airplanes' radio altimeters -- devices used by pilots to measure the distance between the aircraft and the ground in order to land.

In the letter, U.S. airline leaders wrote to government officials Monday asking that the wireless carriers not deploy 5G within two miles of runways at certain airports.

"This will allow 5G to be deployed while avoiding harmful impacts on the aviation industry, traveling public, supply chain, vaccine distribution, our workforce and broader economy," the CEOs wrote.

The FAA warned pilots won't be able to use radio altimeters to land at 88 airports closest to Verizon and AT&T's 5G towers. Earlier this month, the FAA and wireless carriers agreed to implement "buffer zones" around 50 airports across the country to try to mitigate the issue.

Airline officials, however, said this is not enough. United Airlines said the current plan will have "devastating" impacts on its operation, impacting an estimated 1.25 million of the carrier's passengers and at least 15,000 flights.

"We won't compromise on safety – full stop," United said in a statement.

Captain Dennis Tajer, an American Airlines 737 pilot and a spokesperson for the Allied Pilots Association, also called the rollout "unsafe."

"We're not going to fly the airplane unless it's safe," Tajer told ABC News..

5G Cell Tower

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

CatsyCline — Wed, 19 Jan 2022 00:15:21 GMT

In Europe and Asia 5 G has been a standard since 2019. In the US , bureaucracy and a slight difference in bands.

Why does 5G only pose a problem for US airplanes?

America, it turns out, is just a bit unique.

In Washington, Boeing and Airbus are asking the US transport secretary to delay mobile operators' 5G deployments, citing possible negative 5G effects on aircraft safety systems.

Verizon and AT&T agreed to delay the launch of their upgraded 5G networks using the 3.7GHz to 3.8GHz frequency bands, after initially telling the Federation Aviation Administration (FAA) they would both ignore the request for a delay.

Doing so would probably have led to courtroom drama. (And US courts generally defer to regulators in areas involving technical questions.)

But in other jurisdictions, and especially in Europe, regulators and the aviation industry have all been perfectly happy for the 5G rollout to jet on ahead.

So what's different? Partly, it's the nature of bureaucracy, and partly it's that 5G uses slightly different bands in Europe than it does in the US.

https://www.lightreading.com/5g/why-does-5g-only-pose-a-problem-for-us-airplanes/d/d-id/774629

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

MorningLover — Wed, 19 Jan 2022 14:39:26 GMT

The 5G signals that Verizon and AT&T want to emit are stronger than those in Europe.

Why it has made headlines again...

The telecoms giants had been planning to launch the technology across the US on Wednesday, turning on 5,000 towers across the country that will bring Americans' faster internet speeds, including 500 which the airline industry say pose a threat to flight safety.

The rollout has been delayed twice before - Now, AT&T and Verizon, after intense pressure, are agreeing to defer opening some parts of the network near airports.

Despite the delay, some international airlines are already canceling flights to the US out of an abundance of caution.

This graphic shows how the wireless spectrum used by 5G networks could interfere with altimeters, which measure a plane's altitude and is especially important for low-visibility operations.

The CEOs of the airlines have asked officials that the 5G be implemented everywhere in the country except within the approximate 2 miles of airport runways at some key airports.

Altimeter's are a key tool for pilots landing in low-visibility conditions

The issue doesn't just affect airplanes - they could also have a negative effect on the nation's helicopters, including lifesaving medevac choppers.

Under U.S. law, all commercial helicopters must have a working altimeter in order to fly. Without them, officials warn, landing in remote areas or on hospital landing pads will be near impossible.

Helicopter Association International (HAI) petitioned the FAA in October, 2021, asking for medevacs to be exempt from the law when 5G rolls out. On January 13, HAI finally received a response, but was only given partial approval...

Source: The Launch Of 5G Networks In The US Has Hitched Again, This Time Because Of Helicopters Jan. 16, 2022

Daily Mail: AT&T and Verizon activate 90% of their 5G networks and spark international travel chaos: Emirates, Air India and All Nippon cancel flights while BA and Cathay Pacific scramble to switch out Boeing 777s over frequency interference fears Jan. 19, 2022

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

Lipstickdiva — Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:39:29 GMT

I guess I'm not understanding this. Isn't 5G, 5G. How can 5G here be stronger than 5G in Europe? Isn't that like saying 140 pounds here is more than 140 pounds in Europe?

Yes this has been talked about for 2 years so I'm not sure why now it's an issue that the airlines are just addressing.

Re: AIRLINES warn of 5G flight disruption

hckynutjohn — Wed, 19 Jan 2022 17:02:52 GMT

I only know what I read and what I have heard from the media concerniung this problem. Retired from AT&T after 33 years of working there.

What makes "common sense" to me! When it comes to faster telecommunications speed, or the deaths and/or injuries of human on airlines due to signal interferences?

AT&T and Verizon tell the Airline Industry to upgrade their systems, and the Airlines say "we need more time". With that I also think more $$$$, and from whom? Take a guess!

For me the solution is pretty simple because I rarely fly, and rarely even turn on my cell phone, much less use it. But for those that do a lot of both?

As the real old saying goes: "the squeaky wheel gets the most oil". Be passive and complain, or take the route that is more likely to get their attention, which ever side on which you fall.

hckynut 🏒