topic Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution in Community Chat

Catastrophic Events and Evolution

FLgardener — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 20:09:13 GMT

I've been thinking about this for more than a few years. I have lived in Alaska and in the 60s I witnessed glaciers shearing off into the ocean.

I have now lived in central FL for 45 years and have witnessed and survived catastrophic hurricane activity, as well as droughts.

I acknowledge that we need to take of our earth, but I have some questions about how much of our current calamaties are directly caused by human activity and/or preventable by human activity.

Could this be evolution? We want to save ourselves and all of the species of nature, but, is this inevitable evolution at work?

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

CrazyDaisy — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 20:27:43 GMT

Depends on who you ask.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

Preds — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 20:42:09 GMT

DH and I have discussed this for years and believe it is ... and that what we are doing is making it "move" faster or "hit" harder.

We do need to do some things, but I think it will continue and all we can do is try to do better and hope it slows the progression.

"We are paving paradise to put up a parking lot. "

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

Snowpuppy — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 20:53:06 GMT

Well, Glacier Nat'l Park started removing signs that were posted 10+ yrs ago that the glaciers would be gone by 2020. They're not.

I guess it was a hurry up, visit and spend your cash before they're gone campaign.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

FLgardener — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 21:08:17 GMT

@Preds --

Yes, that is very plausible. For example, most of us have seen the flotillas of indestructible plastic waste that washes up on the shores of islands and lands, and yet, the earth is a living, heaving mass that is responding to internal and planetary forces that are beyond our abilities to control.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

FLgardener — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 21:31:47 GMT

@Snowpuppy --

Yeah, copy that. Glaciers do what glaciers are supposed to do--slide off into the sea and then replenish themselves. I remember when we were bombarded with videos of polar bears stranded on ice floes. Now, that has been debunked by the knowledge that polar bears are excellent swimmers.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

SilleeMee — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 22:00:52 GMT

An anthropology professor I took a class from said, in so many words, that the human race is like a cancerous tumor on the earth and eventually it will consume all that was ever good for this world and that there is no cure. We're doomed and evolution won't save a thing. The earth is broken and there are no spare parts to fix it.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

Alison Wonderland — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 21:50:32 GMT

I encourage you to do some reading about Katherine Heyhoe, one of the leading climate scientists in the nation. She has a website and is reachable on most of the major social media platforms. If you reach out to her, she may even answer your questions.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

suzyQ3 — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 21:55:18 GMT

I think that using the word "evolution" here is misleading. Although it can be used to indicate change, it's far more prevalent definition is biological, generally the gradual change to a higher level.

There is not doubt whatsoever that humans have adversely affected the climate, as well as the ecosystem of plants and animals.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

kaydee50 — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 22:21:00 GMT

I find it hard to believe that with almost 8 billion???? (not sure of the exact number) people on earth, humans do not have an effect on climate. While the climate has changed over the millennia, surely we are contributing to that change and not for the better??

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

SahmIam — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 23:01:14 GMT

This is not a subject I am well versed in other than reading and watching reports here and there. Years ago, I thought the "save the whales" or "save the planet" was simply a way to get people to do something because if you said what you REALLY meant, no one would bother. "Save the humans". Yeah, nobody cares about that.

The few discussions I've sat in on regarding the planet and the changes we see year to year, decade to decade have always been presented as simply what the planet is supposed to do. To think humans, flora and fauna as we know it now is how it should always be is, well, arrogant on our part. The planet will be FINE. WE, will not be. WE will be gone.Different forms of life will develop and well, that's that. Things evolve. We may not like it but that's the way it goes.

Are our behaviors pushing things along faster than necessary? I think so. As I said, this is not something I am well versed in; simply passing on what those who are have said to me/to others in thoughtful discussion.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

kaydee50 — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 23:25:35 GMT

@SahmIam Completely agree! It should not be "save the planet"--the planet will survive--it's humans who will not if there is no clean air, clean water and enough food. But I guess no one is interested in saving humanity!!!

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

Mominohio — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 23:29:31 GMT

I firmly believe it is both 'mother nature' and things we are doing to our planet.

Which one has the heavier hand in it all, is the big debate.

Neither side as all the answers, and like most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

suzyQ3 — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 00:13:35 GMT

I'm all for middle ground, but in this case, I think that tends to complacency. We can't be complacent about the facts.

Having said that, I think that we often spin our wheels over relatively insignificant aspects of climate change. It's macro we have to look at if we're truly going to make a dent in this inexorable path to unfathomable changes that our descendants will face.

And that means that without the dedication from TPTB, we will not get there.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

SahmIam — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 00:21:05 GMT

@suzyQ3 Though I may not always agree with what you post, I DO always find what you write to be well written, well thought out and thought provoking.

Would you mind expanding on your last post? Do you think that by making changes (faster? More dramatic? More specified in choice?) the evolution of the planet can be slowed down or changed vs what many see as the natural path it will take by replacing life as we know it with an entirely new one?

Edited for spelling.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

suzyQ3 — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 01:04:17 GMT

@SahmIam wrote:
@suzyQ3 Though I may not always agree with what you post, I DO always find what you write to be well written, well thought out and thought provoking.

Would you mind expanding on your last post? Do you think that by making changes (faster? More dramatic? More specified in choice?) the evolution of the planet can be slowed down or changed vs what many see as the natural path it will take by replacing life as we know it with an entirely new one?

Edited for spelling.

Wow, that's a mouthful, @SahmIam . Let me get back to you on that. It's now my reading/music time.:-)

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

tarytoo — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 08:53:10 GMT

earth has been here for billions of years. and many changes have happened. there is little we can do to stop the next cycle earth goes through. however, i think as humans on the planet, we should learn to adapt to these new changes that affect us. for instance if sea levels rise and the coastal cities look threatened... the people must move to higher ground now instead of waiting for the devastation to happen. then to change the carbon footprint all countries should be planting trees, millions of them. we can do little to make a dent in regards to climate change. Mother Earth has survived ice ages, earthquakes, volcanoes, asteriods, meteors and floods among a zillion other things. and humans have only existed here for a very short time, in the big scheme of things. the damage we have done is minimal compared to the earths history. if mankind wants to survive we must learn to ADAPT to the changing world around us. because the truth is earth will be around long after we're all gone even if we don't protect what we've got..

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

tarytoo — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 08:57:02 GMT

meant to say DO instead of don't at the end. sorry.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

gardenman — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 14:37:07 GMT

@kaydee50 wrote:
I find it hard to believe that with almost 8 billion???? (not sure of the exact number) people on earth, humans do not have an effect on climate. While the climate has changed over the millennia, surely we are contributing to that change and not for the better??

Do we affect temperature? Yes. We're all 98.6 degree (give or take a bit) radiators radiating heat out into the atmosphere. We live and work in heated and cooled structures. (Don't forget air conditioning simply takes the heat from inside our structures and moves it outside.) Anyone saying we don't affect temperature is a fool. Do we affect climate? That's where things get a bit trickier. There are a whole lot of things that affect climate, but surface temperature (what we contribute through normal living) isn't so much one of them. It's a really big, big planet and we're tiny little specks on it.

You may have noticed this big yellowish ball in the sky. It's called the sun. Its output tends to vary a bit and that tends to have rather dramatic effects on our climate. Of late, it's been in a cooler cycle. Some will tell you that indicates a new ice age is pending. Are they right? Who knows. We'll find out at some point in the future.

The alarmists point to CO2 as the big issue. Eh, maybe, maybe not. Carbon dioxide is oddly enough heavier than air. Now air currents tend to prevent the stratification you see in liquids or in a sealed container, but higher CO2 levels near the ground are great for plants. In fact, many commercial greenhouses pump in CO2. The "CO2 is going to kill us all!" alarmists would be a lot easier to believe if they were targeting all sources of CO2 and not just fossil fuels and cattle.

There are very simple, small changes that could be done at little to no cost that would drastically reduce the amount of CO2 produced. Every bottle of soda you open releases CO2 into the atmosphere. Do we truly need carbonated beverages? That industry alone contributes a whole lot of CO2. The greenhouse industry uses a lot of CO2. Bakeries and breweries churn out tons of CO2.

Small gasoline engines like those used for lawn equipment pollute vastly more than modern automobiles. When was the last time you heard someone say they should be banned and replaced with electric and rechargeable options. (That are readily available and I've used most of my life.) The fact that the alarmists ignore many sources of CO2 that are easy to end, tends to make me doubt their credibility.

Alarmists look at surface temperatures and say, "The temperatures are rising! It's definitely CO2! We know the levels have never been this high because we've measured the levels of CO2 in air trapped in sea ice all the way back eight hundred thousand years and those levels are lower!" That kind of ignores the fact there are sea ice algae that live in and move through, oddly enough, sea ice. Like all algae, sea ice algae consumes CO2 and exhales oxygen. The only way you can trust those readings is by ignoring the existence of sea ice algae.

What else could account for the rise in temperature? In this country we're now consuming three times the BTU's we were in the 1950's. Here's a simple experiment. Go out and set up for four equally spaced small campfires in a circle with a radius of say six feet. I'd recommend using the manmade logs to limit variability. Set up a thermometer in the middle and record the ambient temperature, then light one campfire and record the temp as the fire burns until the temp returns to ambient. Then light the other three fires all at once. Guess what? When you consume three times the BTU's the temperature goes up higher. Shocking! Well, not really. Did the atmosphere far above the three campfires suddenly become more heat-reflective and that's why temps went up? No. You just consumed three times the BTU's. We're consuming three times the BTU's we were in the fifties. Of course surface temps are going to rise. If they weren't rising we'd have a much bigger problem.

The reality is everyone just needs to chill out, take a deep breath and relax. The world isn't ending tomorrow. We've had roughly twenty tipping points so far that have all proved to be lies. There are reasonable and rational answers for everything we're seeing these days. Nothing is irreversible. I tend to trust Mother Nature, God, whoever to keep things in balance. If CO2 is the problem then warmer temps mean longer growing seasons which means plants consume more CO2 and we need less heat to heat our homes which lowers fossil fuel consumption which reduces CO2 production which lowers the levels of CO2 and thus lowers the temperature. But, we don't even know for sure that CO2 is the problem.

There are always people out there who want to believe the world is ending and the rest of us are fools for not believing them. This belief has gone on as long as there have been humans on the planet. The reality is the world has never ended and probably won't in any of our lifetimes or the lifetimes of our children or their children and it won't be because of anything we did or didn't do. We're tiny little specks on this big old planet and we're not nearly as important or impactful as many seem to think we are.

Re: Catastrophic Events and Evolution

Sooner — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 15:43:17 GMT

@FLgardener wrote:
I've been thinking about this for more than a few years. I have lived in Alaska and in the 60s I witnessed glaciers shearing off into the ocean.

I have now lived in central FL for 45 years and have witnessed and survived catastrophic hurricane activity, as well as droughts.

I acknowledge that we need to take of our earth, but I have some questions about how much of our current calamaties are directly caused by human activity and/or preventable by human activity.

Could this be evolution? We want to save ourselves and all of the species of nature, but, is this inevitable evolution at work?

@FLgardener Good question and there is a lot of information about that very issue. For instance rapid and drastic climate change has often occurred. But "often" in the earth means during BILLIONS of years.

Human life is so far about an eyelash worth in earth's history. Yes, we could be wiped out in short order and it has occurred before. Climate changes, continents have moved around, and are still moving around which causes earthquakes especially where plates meet and scrape by one another.

Humans can't really do much to affect the planet beyond making a mess at the surface in some places--over the long haul of the planet's existence.

Read about it in many places. Don't confuse climate with weather. Read about plate tectonics. Earthquakes. Continental drift. And look up some charts about geologic time and what has happened in certain eras and ages!

It's fun and fascinating and will give you a better picture of the amazing little planet we live on! Ignore politics and popular theories and just take in the history of Earth!