topic Re: Burden of Proof? in Community Chat

Burden of Proof?

Oznell — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:03:07 GMT

Just heard that Harold Ford Junior has been fingered for inappropriate conduct by his place of employment, which I think is Merrill Lynch but not sure.

I'm sorry, because back in the days when I still occasionally tuned in Morning Joe, the former congressman Ford was a regular, and was a "nice" guy. Everyone liked him, he seemed kind and generous to colleagues.

So, with someone that you would never have suspected of untoward behavior, what is your burden of proof. Will you automatically believe if the accuser reported it to one or more friends? Do you need a higher level of proof?

Just turning this over in my mind, and wondering what others think. Especially those of you who might be lawyers or consitutional specialists, are you worried that innocents will be swept up in the tsunami of accusations?

Re: Burden of Proof?

Lila4Now — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:13:13 GMT

There needs to be some sort of proof required. If there is not, people can make false claims against others. Just because a man doesn't have smooth moves, doesn't mean it was an assault. As women, we have to be able to take care of ourselves. We are not helpless fools. Yes, some are assaults, but I think some are just jumping on the bandwagon for 2 minutes of fame.

Re: Burden of Proof?

LoveMyBaby — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:14:14 GMT

I get what you're saying....but usually where there's smoke....

President John F. Kennedy, the vast majority of boomers and their parents still love & idolize him and the Kennedy family to this day. A notorious womanizer from the whole lot of male Kennedy's starting with the father, Joe. Long suffering wives who ALL looked the other way.

I want to believe those days are over but I hardly doubt it. This too, shall pass.

Re: Burden of Proof?

NorthernLights — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:17:32 GMT

There's almost a witch hunt hysteria tinge to all of this it's gotten so crazy. You can't get back your reputation if you're wrongly accused. In theory you should, but it's really hard to unring a bell. The most serious accusations should be litigated in court.

As for the rest I find I'm uncomfortable judging actions in the past with the opinions of what is right or wrong of the present. I'd like to see a focus put on what behavior do we expect today and moving forward. People who have had experiences could make clear what they didn't like or appreciate and how others can comport themselves to not hurt others. I'd rather see a more proactive and learning approach to bad behavior than this finger pointing 'me too' business.

Re: Burden of Proof?

jeanlake — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:21:17 GMT

Substantial burden of proof needed. False accusations should be met with harsh penalties.

Re: Burden of Proof?

151949 — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:23:23 GMT

@LoveMyBaby wrote:
I get what you're saying....but usually where there's smoke....

President John F. Kennedy, the vast majority of boomers and their parents still love & idolize him and the Kennedy family to this day. A notorious womanizer from the whole lot of male Kennedy's starting with the father, Joe. Long suffering wives who ALL looked the other way.

I want to believe those days are over but I hardly doubt it. This too, shall pass.

There is a huge difference between a man who has consensual sex with someone he is not married to , who is of age to give consent, and a person who sexually abuses another against their will.

Certainly Monica Lewinsky was not being abused against her will - and never said she was. In the video of her & Clinton she never stopped smiling.

I've never heard any woman claim that JFK forced her against her will either.

There is no law against having an extramarital affair but forcing a woman to put up with groping, kissing or more when she doesn't want to and says no - or drugging her then doing it after she can't resist - that is against the law.

Re: Burden of Proof?

chessylady — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:28:25 GMT

Burden of proof applies in a court of law. Employers are free to fire whom they choose. In years past, if a woman accused a man of sexual misconduct SHE would lose her job because he was usually at a higher rank in the company and not easily replaced. Now high ranking people can just deny it happened even if 7-14 women accuse him, even if they were children when it happened and he stays in his job. Justice will prevail.

Re: Burden of Proof?

Plaid Pants2 — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:29:11 GMT

This is going to be an unpopular thing to say, but I really don't care.

If I am to be perfectly honest, I am getting tired of hearing that every day someone else has been accused of "inappropriate behavior".

"Thirty years ago Mr. So-and-so brushed up against me as we were passing in the hall! He assaulted me!"

Give me a break!

That's not assault.

Now, for those who are genuinely assaulted, yes, I feel for them.

But don't go throwing around accusations about something that is decades old, simply because it's the popular and "in" thing to do right now.

It's getting real old, real fast.

The shock value has worn off.

Now, bash away.

Re: Burden of Proof?

Oznell — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:34:39 GMT

You are all raising good points. I find myself torn-- it is a very good thing if those reporting real abuse are speaking up for themselves, and wouldn't have felt they had the support to do it in the past.

But @NorthernLights, you are being very discerning, I think, and your "witch hunt" comment should be a forewarning. I'd hate to see us go in the direction of the Salem witch trials-- history tells us over and over, that things like that can happen...

My feeling is also that we must be careful...

Re: Burden of Proof?

proudlyfromNJ — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:33:43 GMT

I do have to say it makes a difference if woman are groped, talked bad to, forced against their will, etc. I worked for a "party" company for many years when I was young. Everything that I saw and heard(friends) and myself, was consensual. In my opinion...a big difference.

So what happened with all these accusations? Don't know, but if many people made them against one person, hmmm.

Re: Burden of Proof?

trenet — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:35:38 GMT

@Oznell

I think it probable that a small % of “innocents” will be accused. Especially with the 24 hour news cycle and so few journalists who get their backup sources before reporting stories. Some people will go “in search of their good name”.

Whether one has suspected someone or not, doesn’t mean they couldn’t be “guilty”. Lots of people seem nice and turn out not to be. (We’ve probably all heard said about rapists that he “didn’t need to rape anyone”.).

So many people seem nice and turn out not to be.

As for Harold Ford Jr - There’s a big range of conduct that can be considered “inappropriate”.

(What were Company policies, for example, regarding dating other employees?)

There is also a tendency to judge everything by today’s standards as if other types of behaviour that wasn’t considered offensive or inappropriate, or illegal in previous decades should be judged fully by today’s beliefs and laws.

(We can’t charge someone for something they did when a law that didn’t exist, now gets passed which would make what they did a criminal offense but, we do judge people as if the same knowledge, beliefs and practices existed earlier, even if it didn’t)

As for whether to believe the accuser, If she told someone contemporareneously, it would depend, I think it does give somewhat more credibility but, it is also possible that someone could plan an elaborate revenge and telling someone that something happened is a part of that. Maybe I watch too many movies!

(Although that kind of sounds like a movie plot - I know you’re a movie buff - sound familiar? Perhaps a film noir?)

Re: Burden of Proof?

Meowingkitty — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:37:22 GMT

@Plaid Pants2 wrote:
This is going to be an unpopular thing to say, but I really don't care.

If I am to be perfectly honest, I am getting tired of hearing that every day someone else has been accused of "inappropriate behavior".

"Thirty years ago Mr. So-and-so brushed up against me as we were passing in the hall! He assaulted me!"

Give me a break!

That's not assault.

Now, for those who are genuinely assaulted, yes, I feel for them.

But don't go throwing around accusations about something that is decades old, simply because it's the popular and "in" thing to do right now.

It's getting real old, real fast.

The shock value has worn off.

Now, bash away.

I agree, just because someone touched my shoulder or hand doesn’t make it assault

Re: Burden of Proof?

Oznell — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:37:45 GMT

Ha, witty @trenet, VERY noir-ish!

Re: Burden of Proof?

QVCkitty1 — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:40:20 GMT

I don't care if this is popular or not. None of the men who committed these acts thought they were a good idea. They knew they could get away with it, by intimidation or by making a woman feel foolish or less than feminine for objecting. How exactly is one supposed to have proof, carry a video camera around. The ones I fee sorry for are the people who missed out on opportunities because they were given a choice to submit or lose out. Actions have to have consequences or nothing ever changes !!

Re: Burden of Proof?

chessylady — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:50:10 GMT

Women are claiming their bodies and voices. The days of shutting up, smiling and being a "good girl" are over. Women are also standing with other women and not dismissing women who have the courage to stand up and tell the truth.

Re: Burden of Proof?

Bri36 — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:56:39 GMT

Maybe some men will think twice about what they say and how they treat women now.

That is a good thing...

Re: Burden of Proof?

ALRATIBA — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 23:57:34 GMT

@Oznell wrote:
Just heard that Harold Ford Junior has been fingered for inappropriate conduct by his place of employment, which I think is Merrill Lynch but not sure.

I'm sorry, because back in the days when I still occasionally tuned in Morning Joe, the former congressman Ford was a regular, and was a "nice" guy. Everyone liked him, he seemed kind and generous to colleagues.

So, with someone that you would never have suspected of untoward behavior, what is your burden of proof. Will you automatically believe if the accuser reported it to one or more friends? Do you need a higher level of proof?

Just turning this over in my mind, and wondering what others think. Especially those of you who might be lawyers or consitutional specialists, are you worried that innocents will be swept up in the tsunami of accusations?

@Oznell

According to the article I read, there are emails that confirm the incident. I doubt Morgan Stanley would fire him w/o some ammunition.

Re: Burden of Proof?

Annabellethecat66 — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 00:01:11 GMT

It seems like nothing has to be proven anymore. Just having something said seems to be enough.

I am afraid this is going to backfire. People aren't going to want to go out together one on one.

It's not like I know, but I'm wondering. Good grief! Things have gotten crazy.

My daughter told me she went to high school with the woman who accused Al Franken (the woman in the picture). My daughter knew the young woman all through school.

If I were a male I'd be nervous because by the time you're older you don't remember much of being young. It sure seems like (unfortunately) this has gotten (like everything) political.

It's too bad because some of these people have real grievances.

It happened to me, my daughters (very difficult time in our lives). So I know it turned our family upside down. We got through it and my girls were lucky to have a supportive family, but some females don't. Those are the one's I worry about.

I still think some of these charges should be investigated and if wrong doing happened they should be prosecuted and not just move on (like seems to be happening).

If they aren't true or can't be proven then I think the accuser should be prosecuted. Just my opinion.

Re: Burden of Proof?

jeanlake — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 00:05:45 GMT

As another poster said, I'll say this, then bash away....

At work today we read a YAHOO article where a 'nobody' on a reality show claimed Ellen D made her feel uncomfortable during an interview earlier this year. She didn't elaborate or give further details in the article I read -- just made her feel uncomfortable. (and if it was actual harassment -- then, of course -- it wasn't right)

Coworker (age 40) and myself (age 60) had the same response --- Washed-out reality show lady, please go away.

Best guess, there will be accusers popping up who just need to go away.

Re: Burden of Proof?

jackthebear — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 00:46:36 GMT

@NorthernLights wrote:
There's almost a witch hunt hysteria tinge to all of this it's gotten so crazy. You can't get back your reputation if you're wrongly accused. In theory you should, but it's really hard to unring a bell. The most serious accusations should be litigated in court.

As for the rest I find I'm uncomfortable judging actions in the past with the opinions of what is right or wrong of the present. I'd like to see a focus put on what behavior do we expect today and moving forward. People who have had experiences could make clear what they didn't like or appreciate and how others can comport themselves to not hurt others. I'd rather see a more proactive and learning approach to bad behavior than this finger pointing 'me too' business.

bolded my agree, nicely put