topic Re: Skin Care Routine in Beauty

Skin Care Routine

Girl Detective — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 05:59:00 GMT

I've recently tried to put more effort into my daily routine but am confused about a couple issues. My day routine is: cleanse and follow with an alcohol-free toner, AHA lotion, serum, eye cream and moisturizer with SPF. My night routine is: cleanse and follow with an alcohol-free toner, Philosophy Miracle Worker retinoid pads, serum, retinoid eye cream and retinoid moisturizer.

I read that you should use AHA's during the day and retinols at night but I'm not sure if this is true. I also don't know the difference between retinols and retinoids.

My skin seems to really like this regime but I don't want to overdo everything.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions.

Re: Skin Care Routine

Caitlinh429 — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 06:52:59 GMT

I apologize for the long post, but I hope it helps you understand your products a little bit!

Difference between retinoids and retinols:

Retinoids usually require a prescription, but not always. Retinoids have a higher % of the active ingredient retinoic acid. The higher the percentage, the more likelihood it will require a prescription (think Differin for acne or true Retin-A). The stronger the prescription the more likely you are opt to develop redness and peeling of the skin.

Retinols are always over the counter with a lower percentage of the active ingredient. (Think Neutrogena, Estee Lauder and RoC). These usually do not have the active ingredient retinoic acid but instead have retinol or retinol palmitate ("Vitamin A").

Just so you know, your skin can instantly absorb the nutrients and benefits of retinoic acid. It cannot with retinol. Your skin has to convert retinol into retinaldehyde which is then converted into retinoic acid. This is the same with retinol palmitate (except it adds another conversion as retinol palmitate needs to be converted into retinol and then so on with the same process). In easier terms, retinol is a weaker ingredient as it is unclear of how of the benefits it is actually receiving after doing all the changes.

If you go to a dermatologist chances are they will give you a recommendation to use retinol. It is an end all be all when it comes to your skin. It has been proven in clinical tests to prevent/reverse UVA & UVB damage, reduce wrinkles, increase blood flow in the skin, help acne, tighten pores, increase cell turnover, boost natural collagen and even skin tone.

I LOVE retinol. It has done wonders for my skin. I personally use my retinol in the daytime as I use my acne line at night and that has glycolic in it.

Now when it comes to AHA's and retinol, they really do a lot of the same things. AHA's (like glycolic and lactic) and retinol both naturally exfoliate the skin so using either or in the daytime means that you absolutely must use sunscreen.

When it comes to skin care routines I always recommend the 3 basics: cleanser, serum, moisturizer. You can then add other products based off of your needs: masks, exfoliating cleansers, eye serums and creams, etc. I do recommend using 2 different types of cleansers for AM and PM, aka having 2 different routines so that your skin does not hit a "plateau" (think of when you go to the gym and you do the same thing for months, eventually you won't get results anymore. Your skin acts the same way).

When applying your products: always go lightest to heaviest. So, cleanse first. Then apply the lightest/clearest product. Face serum, then eye serum, then eye cream, then face cream, then spot treatments for night or spf then primer for daytime.

Personally - I'd only use toner at night. Toner is meant to "open up the pores" in a sense, to absorb more nutrients. It's great for when you are sleeping when your skin can really use the ingredients, however it doesn't really work in the day time (it also might clog your pores if you are using foundations and powders).

Personally (again) - I only use my SSC retinol pads for when I am too lazy to wash my face at night. I always take off my makeup with makeup remover wipes, but say I'm too tired to wash my face, I'll use the pads instead for cleansing benefits. You don't have to use them every night, especially if you are already using retinol products.

I would recommend getting some kind of mask to break up your routine a bit (this goes back to the "plateau" your skin can hit). But in all honesty, if a skin care routine is working for you then why change it?

Re: Skin Care Routine

JeanLouiseFinch — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:21:09 GMT

CaitlinH - I enjoyed reading your response. I'm on my last tube of RetinA and need to make up my mind if I want to continue. Why do you like Retinol better? All of my reading has left me thinking that Retinol, by the time it goes through all the chemical changes to become retinoic acid, is almost non-effective. Yet, there are people who seem to believe it helps them so I wonder if it's just that results happen, they just take longer to achieve when using Retinol instead of RetinA. I read an announcement from the Mad Hippie company today, that they are introducing a new Vitamin A Serum in about 8 weeks. It's going to have an ingredient I had not heard of before, retinyl retinoate. It's supposed to be stronger than retinol but without the irritation or UV sensitivity that RetinA has. They're also working on a sunscreen.

Re: Skin Care Routine

cassiem — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 12:33:36 GMT

Actually retinoid is the term for any vitamin A derived ingredient, including retinol and prescription tretinoin (Retin A). I think of it in terms of a broad category name. Retinol is a retinoid that is available over the counter. The following is from cosmeticscop.com:

Retinoids: Large group of over 2,500 chemicals related to vitamin A. Topical, over-the-counter retinoids include retinol, retinyl palmitate, retinaldehyde, and retinyl linoleate, among others. Prescription retinoids include tretinoin (Renova, Retin-A), adapalene (Differin), and tazarotene (Tazorac). Other retinoid chemicals include beta-carotene and various carotenoids found in brightly colored and dark green fruits and vegetables.

This is an excellent article explaining what retinol is and how it works and how it is different from prescription retinoids. http://www.paulaschoice.com/expert-advice/anti-aging/_/retinol-for-anti-aging

Re: Skin Care Routine

MandySays — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 13:19:29 GMT

Thanks for all the info cassiem...I'm just getting into anti-aging products and it's all so overwhelming.

Re: Skin Care Routine

cassiem — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 13:28:59 GMT

On 8/11/2014 JeanLouiseFinch said:
CaitlinH - I enjoyed reading your response. I'm on my last tube of RetinA and need to make up my mind if I want to continue. Why do you like Retinol better? All of my reading has left me thinking that Retinol, by the time it goes through all the chemical changes to become retinoic acid, is almost non-effective. Yet, there are people who seem to believe it helps them so I wonder if it's just that results happen, they just take longer to achieve when using Retinol instead of RetinA. I read an announcement from the Mad Hippie company today, that they are introducing a new Vitamin A Serum in about 8 weeks. It's going to have an ingredient I had not heard of before, retinyl retinoate. It's supposed to be stronger than retinol but without the irritation or UV sensitivity that RetinA has. They're also working on a sunscreen.

Jeanne, current research is showing that retinols go through the conversion process on the skin much faster and more efficiently than previously believed. A well-formulated retinol is just as effective as a Retin-A, but since retinols are not as strong, it can take longer to see results. The benefit is that people who can't tolerate or afford the prescription retinoids have an equally effective option over the counter.

Re: Skin Care Routine

cassiem — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 13:31:38 GMT

On 8/11/2014 MandySays said:
Thanks for all the info cassiem...I'm just getting into anti-aging products and it's all so overwhelming.

You're welcome Mandy. The cosmeticscop website has a wealth of information on ingredients and skincare. I don't always agree with Paula Begoun's product reviews, but her research articles are current and excellent sources of information.

Re: Skin Care Routine

Harpa — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 13:52:45 GMT

On 8/11/2014 cassiem said:
On 8/11/2014 JeanLouiseFinch said:
CaitlinH - I enjoyed reading your response. I'm on my last tube of RetinA and need to make up my mind if I want to continue. Why do you like Retinol better? All of my reading has left me thinking that Retinol, by the time it goes through all the chemical changes to become retinoic acid, is almost non-effective. Yet, there are people who seem to believe it helps them so I wonder if it's just that results happen, they just take longer to achieve when using Retinol instead of RetinA. I read an announcement from the Mad Hippie company today, that they are introducing a new Vitamin A Serum in about 8 weeks. It's going to have an ingredient I had not heard of before, retinyl retinoate. It's supposed to be stronger than retinol but without the irritation or UV sensitivity that RetinA has. They're also working on a sunscreen.

Jeanne, current research is showing that retinols go through the conversion process on the skin much faster and more efficiently than previously believed. A well-formulated retinol is just as effective as a Retin-A, but since retinols are not as strong, it can take longer to see results. The benefit is that people who can't tolerate or afford the prescription retinoids have an equally effective option over the counter.

I'm adding to say that there are factors that determine those conversions for each individual -- health & diet, environment, what you use before & after and when....

If you are under a doctor/dermatologist's care for use of RetinA, just continue with their advice. You can always try a retinol/retinoid product to see how it goes. Am I correct in thinking that you do have sensitive skin? It appears that retinyl retinoate's conversion is more gradual, thus more suited for sensitive skin, besides its other characteristics, (one I cannot determine if its a good or a bad thing! I suppose one would not want overproduction of hyaluronan.) ?

Re: Skin Care Routine

JeanLouiseFinch — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 14:35:33 GMT

On 8/11/2014 Harpa said:
On 8/11/2014 cassiem said:
On 8/11/2014 JeanLouiseFinch said:
CaitlinH - I enjoyed reading your response. I'm on my last tube of RetinA and need to make up my mind if I want to continue. Why do you like Retinol better? All of my reading has left me thinking that Retinol, by the time it goes through all the chemical changes to become retinoic acid, is almost non-effective. Yet, there are people who seem to believe it helps them so I wonder if it's just that results happen, they just take longer to achieve when using Retinol instead of RetinA. I read an announcement from the Mad Hippie company today, that they are introducing a new Vitamin A Serum in about 8 weeks. It's going to have an ingredient I had not heard of before, retinyl retinoate. It's supposed to be stronger than retinol but without the irritation or UV sensitivity that RetinA has. They're also working on a sunscreen.

Jeanne, current research is showing that retinols go through the conversion process on the skin much faster and more efficiently than previously believed. A well-formulated retinol is just as effective as a Retin-A, but since retinols are not as strong, it can take longer to see results. The benefit is that people who can't tolerate or afford the prescription retinoids have an equally effective option over the counter.

I'm adding to say that there are factors that determine those conversions for each individual -- health & diet, environment, what you use before & after and when....

If you are under a doctor/dermatologist's care for use of RetinA, just continue with their advice. You can always try a retinol/retinoid product to see how it goes. Am I correct in thinking that you do have sensitive skin? It appears that retinyl retinoate's conversion is more gradual, thus more suited for sensitive skin, besides its other characteristics, (one I cannot determine if its a good or a bad thing! I suppose one would not want overproduction of hyaluronan.) ?

Thanks, cassiem. Now that I've achieved excellent results with RetinA, I sometimes wonder if switching to a Retinol, if that will be enough to maintain or if I'll lose ground.

Thanks, Harpa. I agree there are other factors. Sometimes I just don't know what to think, what's working or what isn't, because I do take supplements and try to eat smart. No, my skin is not particularly sensitive. I started on RetinA a couple of years ago, under a derm's care following some facial surgery, to prevent scarring. It did what it was supposed to, the incisions healed beautifully. I ended up staying on it because it worked so well. I only use it a few times a week now, but an trying to decide if I keep things as is, drop the strength, or go to an OTC. I totally agree on overproduction of hyaluronan (hyaluronic acid). It seems to be in everything these days. It's a fine ingredient, but I think when you're getting it in a serum, moisturizer, BB/CC cream, and perhaps in supplements, it's too much.

Re: Skin Care Routine

LTT1 — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 15:11:05 GMT

I'm following a bunch of you around while still investigating creams!

cassiem... I am definitely stalking you! LOL ... Today I have ordered samples from Paula's Choice. I find myself continually ending up at that site for full information pertaining to products.

There does seem to be a need to combine retinoids with emollients to control the drying and flaking process.

Re: Skin Care Routine

Harpa — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 15:19:24 GMT

On 8/11/2014 JeanLouiseFinch said:
Thanks, Harpa. I agree there are other factors. Sometimes I just don't know what to think, what's working or what isn't, because I do take supplements and try to eat smart. No, my skin is not particularly sensitive. I started on RetinA a couple of years ago, under a derm's care following some facial surgery, to prevent scarring. It did what it was supposed to, the incisions healed beautifully. I ended up staying on it because it worked so well. I only use it a few times a week now, but an trying to decide if I keep things as is, drop the strength, or go to an OTC. I totally agree on overproduction of hyaluronan (hyaluronic acid). It seems to be in everything these days. It's a fine ingredient, but I think when you're getting it in a serum, moisturizer, BB/CC cream, and perhaps in supplements, it's too much.

I constantly re-think things, too.

Your statement brings to mind that RetinA was only meant as a temporary solution (for acne). Don't forget that there are other things besides retinoids that function the same in turning over the skin (and building collagen), not to mention your own natural turnover rate.

My educated guess would be that if you chose another turnover method/nudge, you would not lose what you gained.

Girl Detective, I also wanted to suggest that if your routine is working, just continue on your course. But by the same token, you can use retinoids (and anything else) any time of the day or night. Any sloughing-type ingredient, logically, requires sun protection (in one way or another) during the day.

Re: Skin Care Routine

Kind1too — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 16:06:51 GMT

Thanks for all the info ladies!

Re: Skin Care Routine

Girl Detective — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 21:25:57 GMT

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. I did notice that you mentioned retinoids are stronger and are by prescription. I also know that some companies boast ingredients that are close to the bottom of the list and may or may not be in amounts that are effective. Is there a certain amount I should be looking for? Does anyone use both retinoids and AHA's? Do you really need AHA's in the morning and retinoids at night or just the night treatment? Miracle Worker pads are retinoid, but are they in a strength that is effective? I guess I'm trying to figure out if I'm using an amount that will help because my skin is not irritated at all. Should it be? Thanks again for your knowledge.

Re: Skin Care Routine

cassiem — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 22:35:14 GMT

On 8/11/2014 Girl Detective said:
Thanks to everyone for your opinions. I did notice that you mentioned retinoids are stronger and are by prescription. I also know that some companies boast ingredients that are close to the bottom of the list and may or may not be in amounts that are effective. Is there a certain amount I should be looking for? Does anyone use both retinoids and AHA's? Do you really need AHA's in the morning and retinoids at night or just the night treatment? Miracle Worker pads are retinoid, but are they in a strength that is effective? I guess I'm trying to figure out if I'm using an amount that will help because my skin is not irritated at all. Should it be? Thanks again for your knowledge.

The percentage of retinol is really a matter of your skin and how sensitive it is and how it responds to retinol. Some people have good luck with products containing small percentages of retinol (like Alpha Hydrox Retinol Res-Q with .15% retinol) while others find better results with stronger retinols (like Peter Thomas Roth or NCN, which are both over 1% retinol). Neither one is a "best" for everyone, it's what works for their individual skin.

If you have never used retinol before, unless you have extremely strong, resistant skin that tolerates harsh ingredients well, I'd recommend starting with a lower strength retinol. You can always ramp up the strength as your skin adjusts. I used to use prescription Retin-A, but my sensitive skin no longer tolerates it. I'm actually having better results with an over the counter retinol that is much lower in strength.

Re: Skin Care Routine

JeanLouiseFinch — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 22:41:29 GMT

On 8/11/2014 Girl Detective said:
Thanks to everyone for your opinions. I did notice that you mentioned retinoids are stronger and are by prescription. I also know that some companies boast ingredients that are close to the bottom of the list and may or may not be in amounts that are effective. Is there a certain amount I should be looking for? Does anyone use both retinoids and AHA's? Do you really need AHA's in the morning and retinoids at night or just the night treatment? Miracle Worker pads are retinoid, but are they in a strength that is effective? I guess I'm trying to figure out if I'm using an amount that will help because my skin is not irritated at all. Should it be? Thanks again for your knowledge.

Retinol - no prescription, weaker than prescription RetinA and has to go through several chemical conversions to become retinoic acid, in order to be absorbed. My understanding in that it weakens more with each conversion, so if it's not at the top of the ingredient list it's pretty much worthless in the end. For Retinol, I'd look for the strongest one possible and have it at the top of the list so there's still something there that's going to do something for you.

I use both RetinA and AHA's. There are some contrary opinions, but common understanding and practice is to not use them at the same time because the RetinA is unstable and the AHA will render it ineffective. Dermatologists will recommend that AHA's are used in the morning and RetinA at night. due to RetinA causing increased sensitivity to the sunlight. For the weakened form retinol, I don't know that those rules are as crucial. I use an AHA treatment every morning and on alternating nights. On the in-between nights, I use the RetinA. If you've never used an AHA or prescription RetinA before, you should ease into it. AHA's can make your skin feel a little prickly, but it only lasts a short time. RetinA can make the user's skin peel and get flakey, if they do too much too soon. It's best to go very slow to let your skin adjust.

Re: Skin Care Routine

Caitlinh429 — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 23:23:31 GMT

I personally use products with retinol and retinol palmitate, as I have sensitive skin, and my skin absolutely glows with them. If you have sensitive skin you really should just bang your skin with a full blown retinoid as you will most likely become red and peel.

Cassiem cleared up my original post as bit, but it is essentially saying the same thing. Retinoids = prescription & higher dose, retinols=no prescription & lower dose.

JeanLouiseFinch- I use retinol because of my sensitive skin. My skin can simply not handle a big dose of retinA. Like others have stated though, it really depends on your skin and how your skin reacts to products. So instead of using one product with retinA, I use 3-4 products that have retinol: a cleanser, serum, moisturizer w/ spf & night cream. I also have a fantastic 2-step vitamin a mask too (that i love love loveee, SSC skin detailer). The slower conversions work just fine on my skin and since I use multiple products, my skin absorbs much more nutrients than just using 1 retinA product.

GirlDetective- When it comes to products, makeup, etc that say they have a certain ingredient I have one major rule of thumb: is it in the top 50% of ingredients? If not, then don't waste your $. Of course there are also other problems like cosmetic industry using snag words to get your attention when in reality the ingredient is bologna (think of the food industry, "all-natural" is not the same as "100% all natural" or "100% organic"). But that is an entire other conversation. Always look at ingredient list and look at reviews. When it comes to retinols and AHA's used together: you really shouldn't as both retinols and aha's naturally exfoliate the skin and generate new collagen. Now this all comes down to the strength of the retinol and the aha and obviously your skin. Using a retinoid and then glycolic acid on your skin might be a bad, bad decision. Personally, I use my retinol in the morning and my products with aha's at night (but i also have sensitive skin). I can use my acne/glycolic cleanser at night and use my retinol night cream together with no problem however, but the retinol also isn't super strong in the night cream.

Re: Skin Care Routine

LTT1 — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 20:42:12 GMT

My suggestion is that if your skin seems to like it, stick with it!

guess who had a terrible rxn on hands and arms due to Strivectin face and neck with retinol? The odd thing is this product did not break out the side part of my face... that area has melasma spotting.

I am having good luck with Dr. Gross Ferrulic + Retinol for eyes and using EL Night Repair first. Really looking good!

Re: Skin Care Routine

IControlMyHappiness — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 20:48:55 GMT

Ms. CatH....I enjoyed your response so much, I'm going to print it out so I don't forget. Speaking of Paulaschoice reviews of items, I also find it very helpful and it has stopped be from purchasing quite a few products. I did not know about the site called cosmeticscop.com so I have to go their right now and see what I can learn.

Re: Skin Care Routine

cassiem — Fri, 15 Aug 2014 13:58:17 GMT

On 8/11/2014 CaitlinH said:
I personally use products with retinol and retinol palmitate, as I have sensitive skin, and my skin absolutely glows with them. If you have sensitive skin you really should just bang your skin with a full blown retinoid as you will most likely become red and peel.

Cassiem cleared up my original post as bit, but it is essentially saying the same thing. Retinoids = prescription & higher dose, retinols=no prescription & lower dose.

Caitlin, I respectfully disagree, my post was not saying the same thing as your post. Retinoids are not prescription and higher dose. Retinoid is the category name for all vitamin a derived ingredients, including retinol. Retinol is a retinoid.

Retinoids: Large group of over 2,500 chemicals related to vitamin A. Topical, over-the-counter retinoids include retinol, retinyl palmitate, retinaldehyde, and retinyl linoleate, among others. Prescription retinoids include tretinoin (Renova, Retin-A), adapalene (Differin), and tazarotene (Tazorac). Other retinoid chemicals include beta-carotene and various carotenoids found in brightly colored and dark green fruits and vegetables. (From http://www.paulaschoice.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary/definition/prescription-drugs/retinoids)

From a study by the National a Institute for Health: Aging of skin is an intricate biological process consisting of two types. While intrinsic or chronological aging is an inevitable process, photoaging involves the premature aging of skin occurring due to cumulative exposure to ultraviolet radiation. Chronological and photoaging both have clinically differentiable manifestations. Various natural and synthetic retinoids have been explored for the treatment of aging and many of them have shown histological and clinical improvement, but most of the studies have been carried out in patients presenting with photoaged skin. Amongst the retinoids, tretinoin possibly is the most potent and certainly the most widely investigated retinoid for photoaging therapy. Although retinoids show promise in the treatment of skin aging, irritant reactions such as burning, scaling or dermatitis associated with retinoid therapy limit their acceptance by patients. This problem is more prominent with tretinoin and tazarotene whereas other retinoids mainly represented by retinaldehyde and retinol are considerably less irritating. In order to minimize these side effects, various novel drug delivery systems have been developed. In particular, nanoparticles have shown a good potential in improving the stability, tolerability and efficacy of retinoids like tretinoin and retinol. However, more elaborate clinical studies are required to confirm their advantage in the delivery of topical retinoids. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699641/)