topic Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users! in Beauty

Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

diamond girl 8 — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:35:11 GMT

How many times a week to you derma roll?

What serum/cream do you use? And how long to wait until you put your cream/serum on? Is there a waiting period?

Thanks

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

BellaCarro — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:10:08 GMT

There are two threads with loads of info and discussion on this. I may have time later tonight to recap but if you don't want to wait check them out. Just use the Search function and type in dermaroller.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

Naturesbeauty — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:40:53 GMT

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

lyn in MI — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:52:56 GMT

mom2mc - Cosmetic DermaRollers (0.2mm and 0.3mm) can be used nightly, however it is recommended to start slowly (2 to 3 nights a week) and work up to nightly. Medical DermaRollers (0.5mm and up) have different frequency of use guidelines and the guidelines are based on the needle length.

There are also specific skin care ingredients that should be avoided if using a medical length roller, not only after rolling, but during the wound healing process, which occurs in 3 phases; the Inflammatory & Lag Phase (1 - 5 days), the Fibroplastic Phase (5 - 14 days) and the Maturative Phase (14 - 28 days - 2 years). Dr. Setterfield advises in his book The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling that "Medical needling treatments should not be performed any sooner than every 30 days."

I am starting my second read of his book and I have also sought out a great deal of information online about skin needling, Dr. Setterfield (who studied skin needling for 5 years) and Dr. Des Fernandez (a pioneer of the procedure).

If you are considering adding derma-rolling to your skin care regimen, I feel it is well worth your time to educate yourself on the benefits as well as the cautions you will want to take. I have not yet begun rolling, but I have determined that I want to begin with a 0.2mm needle which will increase the results of my skin care actives. I had originally thought I'd also do a once a month treatment with a 0.5mm, however now that I've read Dr. Setterfield's book and become aware of all of the ingredients I need to avoid if I choose to do medical needling, I am in no hurry to go beyond cosmetic needling.

eta: I wanted to add that there are also recommendations for nutritional supplements to take in combination with medical needling to help support the healing process.

You asked about a "wait time". According to Dr. Setterfield, we have a short window after cosmetic needling (0.2mm/0.3mm roller) to apply actives/serums, because the needling channels close w/in about 10 - 15 minutes.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

MarenSeattle — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:57:18 GMT

On 1/14/2014 lyn in MI said: mom2mc - Cosmetic DermaRollers (0.2mm and 0.3mm) can be used nightly, however it is recommended to start slowly (2 to 3 nights a week) and work up to nightly. Medical DermaRollers (0.5mm and up) have different frequency of use guidelines and the guidelines are based on the needle length.

There are also specific skin care ingredients that should be avoided if using a medical length roller, not only after rolling, but during the wound healing process, which occurs in 3 phases; the Inflammatory & Lag Phase (1 - 5 days), the Fibroplastic Phase (5 - 14 days) and the Maturative Phase (14 - 28 days - 2 years). Dr. Setterfield advises in his book The Concise Guide to Dermal Needling that "Medical needling treatments should not be performed any sooner than every 30 days."

I am starting my second read of his book and I have also sought out a great deal of information online about skin needling, Dr. Setterfield (who studied skin needling for 5 years) and Dr. Des Fernandez (a pioneer of the procedure).

If you are considering adding derma-rolling to your skin care regimen, I feel it is well worth your time to educate yourself on the benefits as well as the cautions you will want to take. I have not yet begun rolling, but I have determined that I want to begin with a 0.2mm needle which will increase the results of my skin care actives. I had originally thought I'd also do a once a month treatment with a 0.5mm, however now that I've read Dr. Setterfield's book and become aware of all of the ingredients I need to avoid if I choose to do medical needling, I am in no hurry to go beyond cosmetic needling.

eta: I wanted to add that there are also recommendations for nutritional supplements to take in combination with medical needling to help support the healing process.

You asked about a "wait time". According to Dr. Setterfield, we have a short window after cosmetic needling (0.2mm/0.3mm roller) to apply actives/serums, because the needling channels close w/in about 10 - 15 minutes.

Lyn, I'm searching the "what not to use" right now (I have 5 windows open right now!) but apparently not finding what you have in order to decide against the 0.5.

But tell me this -- are you referring to stuff that shouldn't be used at ALL with the use of a 0.5, or just that shouldn't be used for a "while" after a treatment? I know you issued the caution about PTR's 40% peel.

I sure wish Dr. Setterfield's book was available in an online edition! While looking up various stuff, it's apparent he's widely studied and has been spreading the message, so one would think that there might be a market for it. Just venting. :-)

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

Wackers3 — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:43:55 GMT

Lyn,

I spent a few hours yesterday reading Sarah Vaughter's discussion boards and also the owndoc site. I know you have no interest in using larger mm derma rollers (1 or 1.5)nor do I but I just wondered if you have come across the need for keeping skin that has been derma rolled with a 1.5 mm roller, as an example, very well moisturized afterwards. Sarah recommends infadolan strongly. I don't recall seeing anything mentioned here about this for the longer mm rollers but certainly could have missed it too.

Have you come across this as a recommendation for using longer rollers in the book?

I also read a section where Sarah was advising someone on a skincare regime and she mentioned that Vit C remains in the skin for several days (has about 4 days tissue half life she specifically stated) so there isn't a need to use it daily. I guess I knew once it is applied that C is in the skin and doesn't rub off like other products can but I was not aware that it lasted that long. Have you ever read that before? The recommendation she was making was that Vit C really doesn't need to be applied every day ............. she suggested 3 to 4 times a week.

I was just curious as to your thoughts .............. I also thought for the sake of those intending to use 1 or 1.5 mm rollers, they might want to research what they need to apply to the skin afterwards because, at least according to the owndoc website, the aftercare varies greatly from using smaller (.5 mm and under) rollers to the longer ones.

They sell a 2.5 mm which appeals some to me ........... at least at the moment. Can't say I am ready to take the leap because I am not there yet.

wackers

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

lyn in MI — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:35:41 GMT

MarenSeattle - first, take a look at the photo below, which is one of Dr. Setterfield's case studies...

© Dr. Lance Setterfield, MD

This individual had treatment for "Lax Skin". She was "55 years old, treated with product for 18 months and a 0.3mm roller for 6 months. (6 months between photographs)

Dr. Setterfield has 12 case studies in his book. He gave one of his patients a total of only FIVE treatments with a 1mm between 2008 and 2013 (for treatment of actinic keratosis, hyperpigmentation & wrinkles). This same patient used a cosmetic roller (0.3mm in length) at home once a week from 2008 and 2013.

Reading his book has convinced me that dermal rolling with anything over a cosmetic length is a serious choice. There is an entire chapter devoted to parameters and protocols and it includes lists of ingredients to avoid. I found his information regarding acids to be very interesting. He believes that the use of any acid that causes exfoliation, (including glycolic, lactic, malic, citric & tataric) will lead to premature aging and we should opt for enzyme peels in place of acids.

Dr. Setterfield also explains that the collagenese enzyme "peaks at around day 14 in the wound healing process to assist with remodeling excess collagen." He advises that "it makes no sense to injure the skin more frequently than once a month." He explains that if patients use a 0.5mm at home more than once a month, they will initially see "early apparent improvement of fine lines, due to edema, thus confirming in their minds that "more is better." However, more is not better.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

Wackers3 — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:53:45 GMT

I'm obviously not Maren but a sincere thanks for the photos, Lyn and the info as to how she attained that improvement. On the very left side of my face, I have a small section of that "lax skin" (never knew what to call it) and these photos give me hope. Even though it is a small section on just one side, it is all I ever focus on or see when I look in my magnification mirror.

You may have just convinced me to give a .3 mm a try ............. if you get a chance, did you see my post to you above.

Thanks again for the photos and supplementing info~

wackers

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

lyn in MI — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 00:35:23 GMT

wackers - Dr. Setterfield does not recommend the home use of any roller longer than 0.5mm (used once monthly) and advises we use a 0.2mm or 0.3mm 2 - 7 nights each week. He recommends that once rolling is completed with a cosmetic roller, we apply and massage the active ingredients (peptides or vitamins A, C, E and Beta-carotine) into the skin. He advises to allow a few minutes for the ingredients to absorb before applying a moisturizer. He advises we use stable forms of Vit C, such as MAP. He states the best results are obtained with the use of Vitamin A, however there are more side effects w/ higher doses. He also talks about the importance of nutrition.

He gives aftercare instructions for clinical treatments (0.5mm - 2.0mm). This post treatment plan guideline covers nutrition supplements, topical applied antioxidants and clinical intervention recommendations during all three phases of the wound healing process.

You mentioned that you are considering a 2.5mm length derma roller. May I ask why? Dr. Setterfield did not reference any case studies using such long needles. Out of the case studies he published in his book, he only used a 2.0mm length on two patients with scars. He treated one patient twice, waiting 2 months between the treatments. He gave the other patient three treatments, one month apart.

Dr. Setterfield completed a retrospective clinical study of 44 patients treated with needling. He concluded that "less is best", because the 0.5mm group produced the best results in the shortest period of time, using Visia analysis to measure results.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

lyn in MI — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 00:44:11 GMT

On 1/14/2014 wackers said:
I'm obviously not Maren but a sincere thanks for the photos, Lyn and the info as to how she attained that improvement. On the very left side of my face, I have a small section of that "lax skin" (never knew what to call it) and these photos give me hope. Even though it is a small section on just one side, it is all I ever focus on or see when I look in my magnification mirror.

You may have just convinced me to give a .3 mm a try ............. if you get a chance, did you see my post to you above.

Thanks again for the photos and supplementing info~

wackers

You're welcome, and yes I saw your post and replied.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

Wackers3 — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:05:11 GMT

Oh my, Lyn, you must think me a total nut case and based on what you read, you would not be wrong. You know that old "decimal point" error that completely and totally alters what you truly intended to say? Well, I did it in spades. I can't even fathom what went through your head when you saw a 2.5 mm instead of my true intent of .25 mm.

I have been vacillating between a .2 and a .3 mm roller and saw that owndoc offers a .25 (almost did it again with that dang decimal) and it kind of seemed like a happy medium. That being said, I have not yet thoroughly checked out their .25 roller so no definitive decision until I do. I do like the site for general knowledge but have not made up my mind about purchasing there. It does seem like a .25 size could be a perfect meet in the middle size between the .2 and .3 as those have been the sizes I'm most considering for absorption benefits. Then possibly adding a .5 once a month but no decision on that yet.

Man, I can just see you shaking your head after reading that and thinking, wackers is completely and without question off her gourd to even dream of a roller that deep. #1 I am not one who seeks out pain needlessly and #2 have not read here or in my own research any viable benefit justifying such a deep needle. I ache thinking about it.

Forgive my decimal misplacement. Ouch!

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

BellaCarro — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:39:40 GMT

On 1/14/2014 wackers said:
Oh my, Lyn, you must think me a total nut case and based on what you read, you would not be wrong. You know that old "decimal point" error that completely and totally alters what you truly intended to say? Well, I did it in spades. I can't even fathom what went through your head when you saw a 2.5 mm instead of my true intent of .25 mm.

I have been vacillating between a .2 and a .3 mm roller and saw that owndoc offers a .25 (almost did it again with that dang decimal) and it kind of seemed like a happy medium. That being said, I have not yet thoroughly checked out their .25 roller so no definitive decision until I do. I do like the site for general knowledge but have not made up my mind about purchasing there. It does seem like a .25 size could be a perfect meet in the middle size between the .2 and .3 as those have been the sizes I'm most considering for absorption benefits. Then possibly adding a .5 once a month but no decision on that yet.

Man, I can just see you shaking your head after reading that and thinking, wackers is completely and without question off her gourd to even dream of a roller that deep. #1 I am not one who seeks out pain needlessly and #2 have not read here or in my own research any viable benefit justifying such a deep needle. I ache thinking about it.

Forgive my decimal misplacement. Ouch!

LOL! I have to admit I bit my tongue trying not to respond when I saw that. I knew you had researched so thought at least you were making an informed decision. I was worried for ya, though!

Our great minds are thinking alike. My .25 arrived about an hour ago. I couldn't decide between the two sizes either and thought this was a great solution.

So relieved to hear it was wandering decimal point.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

Wackers3 — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:59:07 GMT

Definitely a wandering decimal point. Now I am looking forward to hearing how you like the .25 roller. It did seem to make sense, didn't it?

What are you going to apply afterwards? Have you decided yet? I am considering rotating between NCN's Vit C and their Green tea serum. I don't feel there would be any downside to taking turns between the two. Lyn mentioned in a recent post that she was considering Isomer's stem genesis which sounds interesting too.

Good luck when you start and do let us know how you are doing.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

BellaCarro — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 04:03:39 GMT

On 1/14/2014 wackers said:
What are you going to apply afterwards? Have you decided yet? I am considering rotating between NCN's Vit C and their Green tea serum. I don't feel there would be any downside to taking turns between the two. Lyn mentioned in a recent post that she was considering Isomer's stem genesis which sounds interesting too.

I'm going to prep with 100% Pure's green tea toner. Then I think NCN's copper peptide serum followed a bit later with RHSO.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

MarenSeattle — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 05:53:06 GMT

On 1/14/2014 lyn in MI said: MarenSeattle - first, take a look at the photo below, which is one of Dr. Setterfield's case studies...

© Dr. Lance Setterfield, MD

This individual had treatment for "Lax Skin". She was "55 years old, treated with product for 18 months and a 0.3mm roller for 6 months. (6 months between photographs)

Dr. Setterfield has 12 case studies in his book. He gave one of his patients a total of only FIVE treatments with a 1mm between 2008 and 2013 (for treatment of actinic keratosis, hyperpigmentation & wrinkles). This same patient used a cosmetic roller (0.3mm in length) at home once a week from 2008 and 2013.

Reading his book has convinced me that dermal rolling with anything over a cosmetic length is a serious choice. There is an entire chapter devoted to parameters and protocols and it includes lists of ingredients to avoid. I found his information regarding acids to be very interesting. He believes that the use of any acid that causes exfoliation, (including glycolic, lactic, malic, citric & tataric) will lead to premature aging and we should opt for enzyme peels in place of acids.

Dr. Setterfield also explains that the collagenese enzyme "peaks at around day 14 in the wound healing process to assist with remodeling excess collagen." He advises that "it makes no sense to injure the skin more frequently than once a month." He explains that if patients use a 0.5mm at home more than once a month, they will initially see "early apparent improvement of fine lines, due to edema, thus confirming in their minds that "more is better." However, more is not better.

Thanks, Lyn! I've seen that page before (I believe you linked to it) and found it again, but somehow didn't catch this info. I'm already convinced not to roll with a 0.5 more than once a month (I'd already suspected that the edema is what made us go "I look so fresh and plump!"), but I have some serious deep wrinkles so I'd like to at least address those areas monthly. And now cosmetic rolling a few times a week.

That IS interesting about the acids causing premature aging (although I'm past the "premature" part). I'd be happy with an enzyme peel in lieu of the acids -- just need something every once in a while to get that "dead cells gone" look, you know?

Thanks so much again. Before you and BC begain "reporting", I was of the more is better school of thought, and had plans to "graduate" to a 1.5 from the 1.0! Total 180 -- my new matra is "less is more" -- and I'll add "no acids!" to that! ;-)

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

MarenSeattle — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 05:58:30 GMT

On 1/14/2014 BellaCarro said:
On 1/14/2014 wackers said:
What are you going to apply afterwards? Have you decided yet? I am considering rotating between NCN's Vit C and their Green tea serum. I don't feel there would be any downside to taking turns between the two. Lyn mentioned in a recent post that she was considering Isomer's stem genesis which sounds interesting too.

I'm going to prep with 100% Pure's green tea toner. Then I think NCN's copper peptide serum followed a bit later with RHSO.

BC -- what's RHSO? I know I'll go ""of course"" but I just can't figure it out.

AND - the aloe gel + distilled H2O in a spray bottle for my NuFace was absolutely fabulous! I can't thank you enough for the suggestion!!

Now I'm off to check out 100 Pure's Green Tea toner! :-)

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

BellaCarro — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:07:35 GMT

On 1/14/2014 MarenSeattle said:
On 1/14/2014 BellaCarro said:
On 1/14/2014 wackers said:
What are you going to apply afterwards? Have you decided yet? I am considering rotating between NCN's Vit C and their Green tea serum. I don't feel there would be any downside to taking turns between the two. Lyn mentioned in a recent post that she was considering Isomer's stem genesis which sounds interesting too.

I'm going to prep with 100% Pure's green tea toner. Then I think NCN's copper peptide serum followed a bit later with RHSO.

BC -- what's RHSO? I know I'll go ""of course"" but I just can't figure it out.

AND - the aloe gel + distilled H2O in a spray bottle for my NuFace was absolutely fabulous! I can't thank you enough for the suggestion!!

Now I'm off to check out 100 Pure's Green Tea toner! :-)

RHSO=Rosehip seed oil. I used the toner tonight and like it. I also bought a moisturizer but did not use it tonight. It had a warning not to use during the day as it has lots of vit A. Since I did the first .25 roll I decided not to risk any irritation. Used copper and an NCN seaweed for firming serum followed by RHSO.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

MarenSeattle — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:11:39 GMT

On 1/14/2014 BellaCarro said:
On 1/14/2014 MarenSeattle said:
On 1/14/2014 BellaCarro said:
On 1/14/2014 wackers said:
What are you going to apply afterwards? Have you decided yet? I am considering rotating between NCN's Vit C and their Green tea serum. I don't feel there would be any downside to taking turns between the two. Lyn mentioned in a recent post that she was considering Isomer's stem genesis which sounds interesting too.

I'm going to prep with 100% Pure's green tea toner. Then I think NCN's copper peptide serum followed a bit later with RHSO.

BC -- what's RHSO? I know I'll go "of course" but I just can't figure it out.

AND - the aloe gel + distilled H2O in a spray bottle for my NuFace was absolutely fabulous! I can't thank you enough for the suggestion!!

Now I'm off to check out 100 Pure's Green Tea toner! :-)

RHSO=Rosehip seed oil. I used the toner tonight and like it. I also bought a moisturizer but did not use it tonight. It had a warning not to use during the day as it has lots of vit A. Since I did the first .25 roll I decided not to risk any irritation. Used copper and an NCN seaweed for firming serum followed by RHSO.

Of course! :-)

So happy to hear you liked the toner -- it sounds lovely! Since Dr. S. notes the importance of Vitamin A, is the cream what you'll be using for your Vit A source?

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

BellaCarro — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:14:34 GMT

Maren-yes, I'll probably use the 100percent pure moisturizer. Really nice ingredient deck, IMO. Hope it will work on my very dry skin.

Re: Another question for Derma Rollers Users!

Wackers3 — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 06:22:26 GMT

Hope all goes well, Bella and I'll be very interested in hearing your feedback on the whole procedure. BTW, did owndoc ship fairly fast? Guess I just assumed you got it from them because of the .25 mm size.

I also have very dry skin so your experience will be particularly informative for me.