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Yo! - 12/15/12 - The Unthinkable

Started 1355574934.38 in Judith Ripka | Last reply 1355785053.587 by Dead Eye

Good morning and a safe Saturday to us all.

Cold and too dark to tell much else right now.

After such a wonderful Thursday with Miss Judie's visit, lovely jewelry, fun online with my Sisters, being excited with shout outs from Miss Judie to Sir Cancelot in regards to her wearing the lariat necklace and, surprisingly, to myself over the champagne quartz bracelet, I was left on a nice little high awaiting all my treasures next week.

And then yesterday occurred.

Taking care of my DBGD I am in an insular situation. Generally, my phone is turned off during the afternoon so as not to wake the baby from her nap. Unless there is something about Sesame Street or Curious George, I am cut off from news until I turn on the 6 PM news. Yesterday was particularly insular as I was rushing around to make a 1 PM doctor's appointment a half hour away from my home. I rode to the appointment without the radio on and phone off, complaining all the way about the horrendous traffic on the single lane highway which caused me to be a little late to my appointment.

I was quickly taken back to the examination room and my doctor was apologetically in and out of the room while taking phone calls about other patients. During one of these lulls, I pulled out my phone to see if there were any messages of importance. Imagine my shock at what I found. By the time my doctor returned to my room I was in tears and I had to inform my doctor of the tragedy. We both huddled around my cell phone, trying to get enough news to make some sense of the words.

Sense never came.

I am unable to wrap my mind around this evil.

When DH and I went to our regular restaurant for dinner last night, the owner had Nickelodeon on the TVs as there were children eating.

I hope that this tragedy awakes legislators, especially in my state, to rethink the cuts they have made in mental health programs. Who knows if this would have made any difference yesterday? However, I do believe that mental health is still considered a taboo subject in some communities and is, therefore, one of the first programs to be cut when finances are tough.

Sadness permeates to my very core. My heart breaks for the families at Sandy Hook. My heart breaks for our country.

“ I think men who have a pierced ear are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought jewelry.”  
Rita Rudner

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57babe1355629086.1338638 PostsRegistered 8/21/2010
On 12/15/2012 BGDC said:
On 12/15/2012 57babe said:

Let me rephrase my comment:

Had all of the teachers been armed, perhaps one of them could have taken this murderer out before he had the opportunity to wipe out 20 children and 6 adults.

I don''t know what you are trying to say. Do you think the solution is to force teachers to carry weapons and or are you saying that you wish one of them did?

Both. I think it would be a good idea if all teachers carried weapons to knew how to use them to defend themselves. Like I said before, I don't think that will ever happen.

Yes, I do wish that one of the teachers could have taken him out before he took so many innocent lives.



pitdakota1355629525.6379706 PostsRegistered 12/20/2006Kentucky
On 12/15/2012 57babe said:
On 12/15/2012 pitdakota said:
On 12/15/2012 57babe said:

Let me rephrase my comment:

Had all of the teachers been armed, perhaps one of them could have taken this murderer out before he had the opportunity to wipe out 20 children and 6 adults.

I will post what I posted on another thread about that argument:


I am sorry, but this argument makes absolutely no sense to me. Just because someone has a weapon on them does not mean in any situation it would prevent this. And I don't think there is any signficant chance the principal or any other employee in that school having a gun would have increased the probability that it would have prevented what happened.

Unless that someone is a combat veteran, trained military individual, or trained police officer. When something like this happens, the perp has the element of surprise on their side. And that it a HUGE advantage. By the time the human brain can even begin to process what is happening, it is over. Unless you have hours of rigorous training, having a gun to respond isn't going to be the answer.

Target practice? I don't think so. Targets are stationary, they don't move. Targets don't fire back at you. Targets are not producing live ammunition back at you at lightning speed and causing other people right beside you to drop dead. Target practice doesn't provide practice at having other people panicking running in between you and the perp. Target practice doesn't prepare you to accommodate with trembling hands because you are scared to death.

Have you ever talked to a combat veteran that was involved in a signficant fire fight? They will tell you that even with their training, it doesn't begin to account to how it feels to have bullets blazing past you in lightning speed, hearing your commarades go down. It is not easy for those combat vets to talk about it, but when they do...one might begin to understand the chaos and how incredibly cool they had to be, and thank goodness their training comes in to play. Training that was far more than target or sniper shooting practice.

I might also add that the chaos that ensues even in military or police situations has led to other individuals being killed by friendly fire. So, even with training the chaos can account for other deaths.

So unless we want to send all of our teachers, counselors, principals, movie theater escorts, people that work in retail in malls, people that work in an office setting to long arduous hours of rigorous military training, that doesn't even begin to provide a realistic answer.


I think that having all teachers armed and trained to use a weapon to defend themselves and their students is a good idea.

Do I think that will ever happen? No.


I hope not. I teach at the college level and I certainly don't want to have to worry about carrying my gun to class. But, that is just me. And I don't think you can make all teachers carry weapons.

And as I said above....I think it is an over exaggerated sense of confidence. The weapon used in these shootings was a Bushmaster semi-automatic rifle. I don't think most people would stand a chance against that with a handgun.

But maybe if you get your way, all teachers could go to class carring sub-machine guns. Boy, what an enriching stimulating environment that would be for learning. {#emotions_dlg.w00t}

For those who fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know

beba511355630725.227312 PostsRegistered 11/19/2011
There have been 500 murders in Chicago this year. They have some of the strongest gun laws in the US. Laws don't stop killers. Laws don't stop evil. There is no simple answer, if there was we would have already solved the problem of mass murderers.

57babe1355634153.9738638 PostsRegistered 8/21/2010
On 12/15/2012 pitdakota said:
On 12/15/2012 57babe said:
On 12/15/2012 pitdakota said:
On 12/15/2012 57babe said:

Let me rephrase my comment:

Had all of the teachers been armed, perhaps one of them could have taken this murderer out before he had the opportunity to wipe out 20 children and 6 adults.

I will post what I posted on another thread about that argument:


I am sorry, but this argument makes absolutely no sense to me. Just because someone has a weapon on them does not mean in any situation it would prevent this. And I don't think there is any signficant chance the principal or any other employee in that school having a gun would have increased the probability that it would have prevented what happened.

Unless that someone is a combat veteran, trained military individual, or trained police officer. When something like this happens, the perp has the element of surprise on their side. And that it a HUGE advantage. By the time the human brain can even begin to process what is happening, it is over. Unless you have hours of rigorous training, having a gun to respond isn't going to be the answer.

Target practice? I don't think so. Targets are stationary, they don't move. Targets don't fire back at you. Targets are not producing live ammunition back at you at lightning speed and causing other people right beside you to drop dead. Target practice doesn't provide practice at having other people panicking running in between you and the perp. Target practice doesn't prepare you to accommodate with trembling hands because you are scared to death.

Have you ever talked to a combat veteran that was involved in a signficant fire fight? They will tell you that even with their training, it doesn't begin to account to how it feels to have bullets blazing past you in lightning speed, hearing your commarades go down. It is not easy for those combat vets to talk about it, but when they do...one might begin to understand the chaos and how incredibly cool they had to be, and thank goodness their training comes in to play. Training that was far more than target or sniper shooting practice.

I might also add that the chaos that ensues even in military or police situations has led to other individuals being killed by friendly fire. So, even with training the chaos can account for other deaths.

So unless we want to send all of our teachers, counselors, principals, movie theater escorts, people that work in retail in malls, people that work in an office setting to long arduous hours of rigorous military training, that doesn't even begin to provide a realistic answer.


I think that having all teachers armed and trained to use a weapon to defend themselves and their students is a good idea.

Do I think that will ever happen? No.


I hope not. I teach at the college level and I certainly don't want to have to worry about carrying my gun to class. But, that is just me. And I don't think you can make all teachers carry weapons.

And as I said above....I think it is an over exaggerated sense of confidence. The weapon used in these shootings was a Bushmaster semi-automatic rifle. I don't think most people would stand a chance against that with a handgun.

But maybe if you get your way, all teachers could go to class carring sub-machine guns. Boy, what an enriching stimulating environment that would be for learning. {#emotions_dlg.w00t}

Please note: There are plenty of people who could take a murderer out with a handgun.


beba511355635851.18312 PostsRegistered 11/19/2011
We have conceal carry laws in CO. Everyone I know carries a gun. It's not easy to get a permit and you have to go to up dated training every year and pass a background check. If you know how to use a weapon then it isn't scary to carry one.

57babe1355636229.638638 PostsRegistered 8/21/2010
On 12/15/2012 beba51 said: We have conceal carry laws in CO. Everyone I know carries a gun. It's not easy to get a permit and you have to go to up dated training every year and pass a background check. If you know how to use a weapon then it isn't scary to carry one.


That's right.

Good, law-abiding people need to be able to defend themselves against criminals. Period.


Dead Eye1355638128.713885 PostsRegistered 12/23/2006Rhode Island

Kap, First, may I say I understand where you tried to go with this thread, and I thank you for that. Second, as you may remember I have a long history with guns. I have a huge floor safe with about thirty guns of all shapes and sizes in it, and I know how to use all of them. They are all legal in the State where I live, and I have been run through all the required background checks, and have "passed" them all. My late husband was a Viet Nam veteran who was shot there in 1968, and was paralyzed as a result. He was on his third "tour" when he was shot. He was a Marine, throughly trained by the best our country had to offer in the art of killing and survival. He taught me everything I know about guns and how to handle them, as well as my two sons. As far as that "perp" in that school in Ct. is concerned, one well placed shot to one of his knees would have made all the difference in the world! Most people who "carry" are comfortable with guns and how to use them and are more than capable of knowing what to do in a situation like that. That's why they are carrying them in the first place! First and formost to protect themselves and their loved ones.

My sister and my father are both Bi-Polar. Both have had ECT treatments more than once in their lifetimes. The way the laws are written, it is almost impossible to have someone admitted to an appropriate facility against their will. When one is on a "high" or manic, they are having too much fun and think life is just wonderful, and you're the crazy one, if you think I am going to agree to being admitted to a nuthouse! If they are in a full blown depression, they are not about to go out and shoot up a school full of kids anyway. I have had three family members commit suicide after being chewed up in the mental health machine and spit out. No insurance, not enough insurance, the wrong medication, can't afford the right medication, insurance doesn't cover the right kind of medication, I could go on for another hour.

IMHO we have to trust the elected officials we put in office to do the jobs we trust them to do, and remember, until you have walked a mile in my shoes, don't be too fast to rush to judgement.

BTW, Switzerland has the lowest crime rate in the world, and it also has the highest gun ownership rate in the world.

pitdakota1355668359.569706 PostsRegistered 12/20/2006Kentucky
On 12/16/2012 Dead Eye said:

BTW, Switzerland has the lowest crime rate in the world, and it also has the highest gun ownership rate in the world.

Dead Eye, bless your heart...you are dealing with quite a bit. And I thank you for your husband's service. No doubt you learned from an expert since he was a Marine in Vietnam. My husband is also a Vietnam Vet and very active in a veteran's organization. I have to say, I cringe at many of the stories I have heard over the years. They faced so many challenging situations and I can't believe the bravery they possessed. Too bad those stories weren't recognized at the time.

But, as we as a country move forward to attempt to deal with the horrific tradegy that unfolded in Conn, it is important that we all look at factual information. So, I will provide a link to snopes that disputes the information you included about Switzerland: <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp">http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp</a>

This can also be verified by just doing a google search about what country possesses the most firearms. Multiple sites will come up, including wikipedia. No matter how the rate is calculated, the United States tops the list in every case. Although, I do have to say I think there are limitations to how all of these rates are determined, Switzerland is never #1. We are.

But, I also think there is a big difference between gun ownership and gun violence. And as far as I can tell, I don't think anyone is wanting to ban all guns. Although I do agree with several here that say we need much more stringent control of weapons and I certainly do question why anyone needs a semi-automatic assualt weapon.

There is just something wrong when someone that is here in the United States that is also on the terrorist watch list can legally purchase these types of weapons with an unlimited supply of ammunition, simply because it is still legal for them to purchase those weapons.

I think the discussion here would be totally different if the perp yesterday had been someone from a country in the Middle East that was on our very own terrorist watch list.

Just my 2 cents.


For those who fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know

kaplan2061355674317.54710761 PostsRegistered 1/27/2008from the cradle of liberty & cheesesteak

Many thanks to everyone for their civil participation in this thread.

Emotions are running very high right now, but I feel we need to have a serious discussion of all aspects of this tragedy. I so appreciate everyone participation.

=====

Dead Eye - Hugs to you.

“ I think men who have a pierced ear are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought jewelry.”  
Rita Rudner

Dead Eye1355687109.847885 PostsRegistered 12/23/2006Rhode Island

pitdakota, I just visited Snopes and searched "Switzerland guns" and this is what came up:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

Of course, webbie has seen to it that it can't be clicked on and read, but, maybe you can find the same page that I just read and cut and pasted. It verified what I had read before.

I don't know what the answer is. If guns are banned, then bombs will be used ( Oklahoma City). Did you read about the crazy in China that used a knife to slash school children, on Friday? Do we ban knives? Mental health issues need to come out of the dark and be made to be acknowledged and treated just like any other medical issue, with no shame attached.

Last edited on 12/16/2012

Last edited on 12/16/2012

MickD1355687935.5977651 PostsRegistered 2/6/2008San Clemente, CA.

Deadeye ~ I completely agree with you. No one can make blanket statements about this situation. It really all starts at home, with the family/friends and those dynamics. I don't like guns even though I grew up with them. My DS and DH have guns, and they use them responsibly, and they are under lock and key. But if for one moment, I thought/knew something bad would happen because we had guns in the house....I would take them to the nearest police/fire station. I can only be responsible for myself and my family.

~ Mick

"When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time." ~ Maya Angelou

Pie19931355688563.2631804 PostsRegistered 6/25/2007
On 12/15/2012 BurbankKate said:
On 12/15/2012 kaplan206 said:
On 12/15/2012 BurbankKate said: There are a lot of problems in our world...starvation, drug use and overdose, alcoholism, child abuse...this is only scratching the surface. The older I get, the more I know that throwing money at problems does not solve them ( the average welfare family receives $80,000 per year in aid and money)... Bottom line...we live in a fallen world and hearts need to change because money doesn't fix anything. Last edited on 12/15/2012

I respectfully ask you to think of how one begins to address mental health problems if the financial resources are pulled from funding it. Mental health is a very complex issue, and one which carries a lot of shame. Money by itself does not solve anything, but if used properly begins to build briges for those in need.

when a child is loved ( heart) and raised in a home with that, and the person accepts the love ( heart) and doesn't purposefully reject the love ( rebellion) then the issues of mental instability don't arise. Most mental health issues relate to childhood trauma from abusive parents/ relatives. It always comes down to a heart issue...as it does with the denegration of our nation and the dumbing down of people who believe the govt will solve their problems.

I disagree with you regarding mental health issues. Although abuse/childhood trama can contribute to mental health issues - the MAJORITY OF THESE ISSUES ARE DUE TO A CHEMICAL IMBALANCE IN THE BRAIN. I work the Homeless in an affluent area and many of these people have CARING FAMILIES.

ok4ablonde21355689467.1778837 PostsRegistered 3/9/2009Midwest

BurbankKate: You go girl! {#emotions_dlg.thumbup} I'm glad we have conceal/carry here in Indiana. What we need is MORE conceal/carry laws passed in other states along with more access to those with mental issues to get the help they need (or maybe have treatment forced on them). NOT gun control laws.

"We're all mad here." - The Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland

Jersey Born1355701524.2334890 PostsRegistered 3/7/2008
On 12/16/2012 ok4ablonde2 said:

BurbankKate: You go girl! {#emotions_dlg.thumbup} I'm glad we have conceal/carry here in Indiana. What we need is MORE conceal/carry laws passed in other states along with more access to those with mental issues to get the help they need (or maybe have treatment forced on them). NOT gun control laws.

ITA. I also think there should be SSRI control laws. Too many are becoming psychotic on these drugs. People taking these drugs are the ones shooting people en masse and killing them.

Give yourself a hug today, and know that what lies between your arms belongs to you and no one else.

ennui1355725637.9219957 PostsRegistered 4/17/2007
On 12/15/2012 Tomgirl said:

I asked all the "2nd amendmenters" at work if it was THEIR KID that was shot would you feel the same way?

One of the worst days in our nation's recent history was caused by a handful of men and some box cutters. (9/11).

It's not the guns.

When we get back to 'thou shall not kill,' we'll be better off.

"Enjoy the little things, for one day you may look back and realize they were the big things." ~ Robert Brault

SAgal1355728824.922138 PostsRegistered 8/25/2007
On 12/15/2012 kaplan206 said:
On 12/15/2012 BurbankKate said: There are a lot of problems in our world...starvation, drug use and overdose, alcoholism, child abuse...this is only scratching the surface. The older I get, the more I know that throwing money at problems does not solve them ( the average welfare family receives $80,000 per year in aid and money)... Bottom line...we live in a fallen world and hearts need to change because money doesn't fix anything. Last edited on 12/15/2012

I respectfully ask you to think of how one begins to address mental health problems if the financial resources are pulled from funding it. Mental health is a very complex issue, and one which carries a lot of shame. Money by itself does not solve anything, but if used properly begins to build briges for those in need.

ITA but in this case it would not have mattered - this Mom had plenty of money to use for whatever help he needed - either she didn't or didn't want to recognize the severity of his problems.

Nature is the art of God.

BGDC1355750898.3175077 PostsRegistered 12/22/2010

It's Monday, and the children are off to school. I feel compassion for the parents today, the ones who will not be waking up their children, the ones whose children are safe but with no school to go to, the little brothers and sisters who may not understand why their sibling isn't with them this morning, as if it were all a bad dream.

I wish that there were something that I could do, and if anybody reading this post has any ideas, please respond.

I know that there has been discussion on gun control and the mental health care system on this thread, and I hope that something positive can come out of this disaster. Can't we at least find a middle ground, like making military assault weapons illegal?

I, like the rest of the country, still want answers. We may never know why this happened, this senseless act of unfathomable violence.

My prayers and thoughts are with the families, and I grieve.

PpprMintPa­tty1355757461.71318758 PostsRegistered 8/7/2007Outside our Nation's Capitol
On 12/17/2012 SAgal said:
On 12/15/2012 kaplan206 said:
On 12/15/2012 BurbankKate said: There are a lot of problems in our world...starvation, drug use and overdose, alcoholism, child abuse...this is only scratching the surface. The older I get, the more I know that throwing money at problems does not solve them ( the average welfare family receives $80,000 per year in aid and money)... Bottom line...we live in a fallen world and hearts need to change because money doesn't fix anything. Last edited on 12/15/2012

I respectfully ask you to think of how one begins to address mental health problems if the financial resources are pulled from funding it. Mental health is a very complex issue, and one which carries a lot of shame. Money by itself does not solve anything, but if used properly begins to build briges for those in need.

ITA but in this case it would not have mattered - this Mom had plenty of money to use for whatever help he needed - either she didn't or didn't want to recognize the severity of his problems.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to get the facts...but do we know the mother didn't try to get help for him?

I'm not an expert in mental health(or anything for that matter), but from what I understand, it isn't as easy as some may think. I know of a lady who has shared some of her struggles with her son...and 'struggle' is putting it mildly.

From what I've seen, no one could possibly say she didn't do everything in her power to receive help for her child. It sure was NOT an easy road and I could see where the strongest of mothers would have given up. Again, I don't know how it all works nor do I want to share someone's personal story without their permission, but I know she fought, and fought hard, for whatever help she could get for her child.

I'm sure every state is different, but I personally had no idea how difficult the system made it for a family to get their child the care and help they need.

Today, I am still grieving for all families involved as well as feeling a sense of pride for our teachers that are going back in, to love and protect our little ones even as they themselves are grieving.

If anyone wants to participate, many are wearing green and white today...Sandy Hook's colors.

~Formerly known as Danny~

Sheesh1355760891.4679779 PostsRegistered 12/8/2007Funkytown
On 12/15/2012 sharonrs said:

BurbankKate, I think you have some misconceptions about the poor and the mentally ill. I don't know whwere you got your figures but here in CT the average monthy benefit for a family of three on TANF is about $700 which x 12 equals $8,400. Yes you can add SNAP which is food assistance average $200-400 monthly per three person household and medicaid which average cost is $21,000 but it doesn't come anywhere near $80,000 per year. CT is one of the states with the highest level of benefits. I was a Social Worker for 26 years and I worked with many families who had a child with mental illness or behavior problems and the majority of them had loving parents who did everything they could to help their child lead as normal a life as possible. Please don't use this tragic experience in CT to spread the misinformation that has become "fact" in this country.

Last edited on 12/15/2012

Sharonrs, god bless you for doing the difficult and important work of a social worker---you are one of the unsung heroes in our society. As a society, we need to stop worshipping the "cult of celebrity" and money, and put more focus on the important work of healing and making us a better society. How many wakeup calls to we need before we begin to take action?

" I'd luv to kiss ya, but I just washed my hair." Bette Davis

ok4ablonde21355761192.8138837 PostsRegistered 3/9/2009Midwest
On 12/17/2012 ennui said:
On 12/15/2012 Tomgirl said:

I asked all the "2nd amendmenters" at work if it was THEIR KID that was shot would you feel the same way?

One of the worst days in our nation's recent history was caused by a handful of men and some box cutters. (9/11).

It's not the guns.

When we get back to 'thou shall not kill,' we'll be better off.

ITA, Ennui. 9/11 was the worst day for me and I knew no one at all who was killed that day.

"We're all mad here." - The Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland

pitdakota1355761514.4239706 PostsRegistered 12/20/2006Kentucky
On 12/16/2012 Dead Eye said:

pitdakota, I just visited Snopes and searched "Switzerland guns" and this is what came up:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

Of course, webbie has seen to it that it can't be clicked on and read, but, maybe you can find the same page that I just read and cut and pasted. It verified what I had read before.

I don't know what the answer is. If guns are banned, then bombs will be used ( Oklahoma City). Did you read about the crazy in China that used a knife to slash school children, on Friday? Do we ban knives? Mental health issues need to come out of the dark and be made to be acknowledged and treated just like any other medical issue, with no shame attached.

Last edited on 12/16/2012

Hi Dead Eye!

I don't think banning all guns is the answer, nor do I think arming everyone is the answer for reasons I previously cited.

But, as I ponder this issue....I have to say I see no logical explanation as to why a regular citizen should need a semi-automatic assault weapon with clips that hold a large number of rounds. In addition, those rounds could be armor piercing bullets. I just can't think of one logical reason that anyone outside of the military or law enforcement would need that type of firepower.

It also concerns me that someone on the terrorist watch list has complete access to legally purchasing firearms with an unlimited supply of ammunition under our current gun laws. They can't buy a ticket to fly on an airplane, but firearms aren't restricted.

Yes, I did read about the slashing incident in China. But I also noted that not one death resulted from that incident. Sad incident to be sure, but the victims survived. We can't say that about those children and school employees in Friday's incident.

And I also completely agree with what you said about mental health. Resources and legislation pertaining to mental health was gutted in the 1980s and it had a signficant negative impact on mental health care in this country. We don't know the specifics yet as to the shooter in Friday's horrific incident, so I won't pontificate on how that might play into this situation until the facts are known. But in general, mental healthcare in this country faces signficant challenges and we need to revisit those issues and have serious discussions.

I don't think there is any single answer but I do know that I think it is well past time to have these discussions. I think those precious children and other school officials that were brutally murdered deserve at least that.

For those who fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know

Me2Me1355761649.1676827 PostsRegistered 11/7/2007In my own little world

The solution for me is to buy a taser! I am no Annie Oakley and would find it very uncomfortable to own a gun. I have four sons and I do not need a gun in the house. I have been thinking about a owning a taser for personal safety.

I also feel that people who have an individual who is psychologically disturbed should not have a gun in the house. However, I feel if you do own a gun it is your responsibilty on educating yourself and keeping it out of harms way for others.

Have you met or seen my friend Harvey? Harvey loves Judith Ripka and her jewelry!! He says," Judith Ripka makes me very "hoppy!"

Dead Eye1355785053.57885 PostsRegistered 12/23/2006Rhode Island

pitdakota - Very well said, and I couldn't agree more. A Congressman from my State who was paralyzed at the age of sixteen as a result of a gun accident, in a Police station, no less, said it perfectly. "Gun control, if not now, when?" I am usually the first one to stand up and defend the Second Amendment, but, I have given up after this one. Between that and the battle with mental illness, there is a lot of work that needs to be done. It needs to start now.

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