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Alternative to retinol

Started 1282125208.67 in Beauty Banter | Last reply 1282139634.95 by cassiem

Is their an alternative for those who cant use retinols? Does anything give the same results?

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Neela1282127845.51429 PostsRegistered 8/15/2008Fruit Cove, Florida

Hi ktptudence,

From the experts here on the board I have heard/read that Matrixyl 3000 is an ingredient to look for...I have read a bit about it and studies show it gives results similar to retinol without the irritation?? Be sure to read up on it...interesting results.

I know some of the beauty and ingredient experts will chime in for you!

All the best, Neela

lyn in MI1282128898.07324588 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan
On 8/18/2010 ktptudence said:

Is their an alternative for those who cant use retinols? Does anything give the same results?

I posted this info last week for a fellow member, and the info includes links to detailed info for both Matrixyl and Matrixyl 3000, including the results of their clinical trials:

"Mystical - Have you tried Matrixyl (or) Matrixyl 3000? I ask because Matrixyl was clincally tested against retinol, and found to produce better results in less time and without any irritaiton. I know you have had issues with various product lines, and think that these peptides may be a better choice for you. I've included a couple of links below for you...

Matrixyl - - Matrixyl 3000

If you decide to try either, you want to make sure that the product you purchase contains at least the recommended use level by Sederma (it's creator). Otherwise, you will not experience any results. Sederma recommends that we use products containing 3 - 8% of Matrixyl (or) Matrixyl 3000"

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

Jayro1282129331.721949 PostsRegistered 11/29/2008

lyn, does Isomers Matrixyl 20% Solution name tell us that it contains 20% of the ingredient that Sederma recommends?

lyn in MI1282129636.78324588 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan
On 8/18/2010 Jayro said:

lyn, does Isomers Matrixyl 20% Solution name tell us that it contains 20% of the ingredient that Sederma recommends?

Yes - it is 10% of each ingredient.

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

Jayro1282129959.1671949 PostsRegistered 11/29/2008

So, are there any other name brand matrixyl products that contain more, or is Isomers the most?

lyn in MI1282130174.9924588 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan
On 8/18/2010 Jayro said:

So, are there any other name brand matrixyl products that contain more, or is Isomers the most?

Isomers is the highest % I've ever seen, and the only one I've seen with both Matrixyl and Matrixyl 3000.

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

Jayro1282130314.461949 PostsRegistered 11/29/2008

lyn, have you used Isomers Matrixyl to treat wrinkles, and if so, what results did you get? Also, have you used Isomers Acetyl Hexapeptide to treat wrinkles, and did you get results with it?

lyn in MI1282131056.3424588 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan
On 8/18/2010 Jayro said:

lyn, have you used Isomers Matrixyl to treat wrinkles, and if so, what results did you get? Also, have you used Isomers Acetyl Hexapeptide to treat wrinkles, and did you get results with it?

Isomers doesn't use retinol in most all of their formulations (because it can be irritating), so Matrixyl and Matrixyl 3000 are used in many of their formulations. I've used One 3000 for Eyes for approx 3 years on my under/outer eye area. Matrixyl 3000 is one of it's ingredients. I have no crow's feet. If I were going to try one of Isomers Acetyl Hexapeptide -8 serums, I would buy the 15% solution. I would target treat with it first on clean skin and once it absorbed, I would apply the Matrixyl 20% solution full face. Once that absorbed, I would continue with my AM/PM skin care routine. It should only take a few drops of each, so the 2oz bottle should last at least 60 days with AM/PM use.

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Last edited on 8/18/2010

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

Harpa1282136862.8277677 PostsRegistered 6/28/2007

Are you understanding the function of retinol? It is to help in cell turnover - the same benefit you get from Vitamin C and AHA's and microdermabrasion, as I understand it. It is also a natural preservative and is naturally derived. Rembember, retinoic acid (synthetic Vitamin A) in its conception was designed to help relieve acne problems -- shedding that top surface skin.

Matrixyl 3000 is completely different. It is a good "anti-ager" with extensive study. It increases overall collagen production (skin restructuring), improving skin elasticity and tone. M3000 has two active components, making it different than the Matrixyl peptide alone.

According to Sederma, which developed M3000:

Sederma also reported a small human study involving two groups of 24 volunteers where Matrixyl 3000 performed considerably better than placebo and somewhat better than "classic" Matrixyl, including the following beneficial effects after two month of daily application *:

  • Reduction in main wrinkle depth (-15%) and volume (-18%)
  • Reduction in roughness (-14%)
  • Reduction in complexity (-16%), "lifting" parameter
  • Decrease in the area occupied by deep wrinkles (>200 microns) (-44%), -37% decrease in density
  • Increase in skin tone (+15%)

So, my answer to your question as to what is an alternative to retinol in its function would be a topical Vitamin C or AHA or other acids that assists in cell turnover.

lyn in MI1282137381.62724588 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan

Harpa - you make excellent points, however my understanding is that Sederma tested it against retinol, and markets it as an alternative to retinol with regards to wrinkle reduction and increasing collagen. My understanding of retinol is that it increases collagen production and thus reduces wrinkles. Matrixyl is marketed as a great alternative for those who find retinol irritating.

eta: I am also finding info that states Matrixyl/Matrixyl 3000 are "Messenger peptides help to stimulate the skin and cell turnover."

I want to continue to dig for more info.

eta: http://www.sederma.fr/Actives/Matrixyl.htm

Last edited on 8/18/2010

Last edited on 8/18/2010

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

lyn in MI1282137951.8824588 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan

Jayro - I found another company offering 20% Matrixyl/Matrixyl3000 Serum...

http://www.ncnproskincare.com/20-matrixyl-3000-serum.html

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

Harpa1282138415.047677 PostsRegistered 6/28/2007
On 8/18/2010 lyn in MI said:

Harpa - you make excellent points, however my understanding is that Sederma tested it against retinol, and markets it as an alternative to retinol with regards to wrinkle reduction and increasing collagen. My understanding of retinol is that it increases collagen production and thus reduces wrinkles. Matrixyl is marketed as a great alternative for those who find retinol irritating.

Hi, lyn! Thanks! I wasn't aware of Sederma comparing it to retinol. In any event, I like both!! (Retinol & M3000)

I guess one may reason out, if Vit. C increases collagen, Vit. A may also. It is not hard to fathom that both of these would do more for the skin than just benefit the surface of the skin.

What I really don't get are the retinol irritations. I don't understand what those irritations are in their visible form. I can't remember having read that someone actually described it/them.

Retinol has so many benefits, and (I wonder) if one introduces it slowly w/ low percentages into their skincare, they might be able to overcome that irritation, just as w/ other ingredients.

There are always more roads that lead to Rome, so if not one way, then another.

cassiem1282139000.086836 PostsRegistered 10/6/2004
On 8/18/2010 Harpa said:

Hi, lyn! Thanks! I wasn't aware of Sederma comparing it to retinol. In any event, I like both!! (Retinol & M3000)

I guess one may reason out, if Vit. C increases collagen, Vit. A may also. It is not hard to fathom that both of these would do more for the skin than just benefit the surface of the skin.

What I really don't get are the retinol irritations. I don't understand what those irritations are in their visible form. I can't remember having read that someone actually described it/them.

Retinol has so many benefits, and (I wonder) if one introduces it slowly w/ low percentages into their skincare, they might be able to overcome that irritation, just as w/ other ingredients.

There are always more roads that lead to Rome, so if not one way, then another.

The double blind medical studies on Renova (tretinoin) prove that it increases cell turnover and stimulates collagen production. The studies on vitamin c are not as conclusive.

Retinol is irritating and drying because it's acidic. Some people are also sensitive to vitamin A. I think many times irritation is caused by using too strong a formulation too frequently at the beginning. However, some people will be sensitive to retinol no matter how they try to introduce it.

I first tried Retin-A in the early 1980's for acne and it severely burned my skin. A decade later later when my derm wanted me to try it again for rosacea, I was very sceptical. However, he started me on a very low dose over the counter retinol (Alpha Hydrox Retinol Res-Q) only one night a week for several months, it took me almost two years to work up to using it every other night. Then he put me on a stronger retinol, again only once a week and working up to every other night. It took 5 years to work up to the lowest strength of Retin-A. But my seriously sensitive skin never had any irritation, redness, or peeling. I honestly believe it was because I went so slowly and took my time. It was worth it.

lyn in MI1282139052.8924588 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan

Harpa - yes, Sederma clinically tested Matrixyl against both retinol and Vitamin C. The test results are in the info I linked to in post #2.

Got the following info from WebMD...

"Retinol can irritate the skin. By the end of the study, most patients in the retinol group had some skin dryness or irritation. As instructed, they cut back on their retinol use in light of those side effects.

Retinol didn't erase wrinkles forever. The researchers followed 11 participants for six months after retinol treatment ended. The skin differences seen in the study faded during that time.

The study appears in the Archives of Dermatology."

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

Harpa1282139299.727677 PostsRegistered 6/28/2007
On 8/18/2010 cassiem said:

The double blind medical studies on Renova (tretinoin) prove that it increases cell turnover and stimulates collagen production. The studies on vitamin c are not as conclusive.

Retinol is irritating and drying because it's acidic. Some people are also sensitive to vitamin A. I think many times irritation is caused by using too strong a formulation too frequently at the beginning. However, some people will be sensitive to retinol no matter how they try to introduce it.

I first tried Retin-A in the early 1980's for acne and it severely burned my skin. A decade later later when my derm wanted me to try it again for rosacea, I was very sceptical. However, he started me on a very low dose over the counter retinol (Alpha Hydrox Retinol Res-Q) only one night a week for several months, it took me almost two years to work up to using it every other night. Then he put me on a stronger retinol, again only once a week and working up to every other night. It took 5 years to work up to the lowest strength of Retin-A. But my seriously sensitive skin never had any irritation, redness, or peeling. I honestly believe it was because I went so slowly and took my time. It was worth it.

Thanks for your explanation, cassiem! That makes sense to me! Yes, that was slow going for you, and I'm glad it's worked out so well!

cassiem1282139447.286836 PostsRegistered 10/6/2004
On 8/18/2010 Harpa said:
On 8/18/2010 cassiem said:

The double blind medical studies on Renova (tretinoin) prove that it increases cell turnover and stimulates collagen production. The studies on vitamin c are not as conclusive.

Retinol is irritating and drying because it's acidic. Some people are also sensitive to vitamin A. I think many times irritation is caused by using too strong a formulation too frequently at the beginning. However, some people will be sensitive to retinol no matter how they try to introduce it.

I first tried Retin-A in the early 1980's for acne and it severely burned my skin. A decade later later when my derm wanted me to try it again for rosacea, I was very sceptical. However, he started me on a very low dose over the counter retinol (Alpha Hydrox Retinol Res-Q) only one night a week for several months, it took me almost two years to work up to using it every other night. Then he put me on a stronger retinol, again only once a week and working up to every other night. It took 5 years to work up to the lowest strength of Retin-A. But my seriously sensitive skin never had any irritation, redness, or peeling. I honestly believe it was because I went so slowly and took my time. It was worth it.

Thanks for your explanation, cassiem! That makes sense to me! Yes, that was slow going for you, and I'm glad it's worked out so well!

You're welcome. I've had almost two decades of studying retinoids, plus seeing the results in my own skin.

lyn in MI1282139541.3924588 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan

cassiem - Great info on the length of time it took for you to work your way up to Retin-A. There is much to be said about slow and steady.

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

cassiem1282139634.956836 PostsRegistered 10/6/2004

Absolutely. My derm is terrific, he looks long term rather than quick benefits, and believes that irritation is to be avoided at all costs. He honestly saved my skin.

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