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Yes or No...."Retin-A" and "AHA" use at the same time?

Started 1289141047.517 in Beauty Banter | Last reply 1289339719.64 by Twins

Hello,

Can you use Retin-A and an AHA at the same time, together?

Meaning....put Retin-A on, then ontop of the Retin-A, put on an AHA? Combine?

Is it OK to use both at the same time or do they cancel each other out?

TIA

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Sassenach11289141382.6834498 PostsRegistered 12/3/2005

I cannot use AHA's at all - even in the AM - having used RA at night. My skin is too sensitive.

lyn in MI1289141523.2624391 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan

I think the following info is included with inserts for Retin-A...

"Unless your doctor tells you otherwise, it is especially important to avoid using the following skin products on the same area as tretinoin:

  • Any other topical acne product or skin product containing a peeling agent (such as benzoyl peroxide, resorcinol, salicylic acid, or sulfur)
  • Hair products that are irritating, such as permanents or hair removal products
  • Skin products that cause sensitivity to the sun, such as those containing spices or limes
  • Skin products containing a large amount of alcohol, such as astringents, shaving creams, or after-shave lotions
  • Skin products that are too drying or abrasive, such as some cosmetics, soaps, or skin cleansers

Using these products along with tretinoin may cause mild to severe irritation of the skin. Although skin irritation can occur, some doctors sometimes allow benzoyl peroxide to be used with tretinoin to treat acne. Usually tretinoin is applied at night so that it does not cause a problem with any other topical products that you might use during the day. Check with your doctor before using topical medicines with tretinoin."

©mayoclinic.com

Last edited on 11/7/2010

Last edited on 11/7/2010

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

lovestotea­ch1289141642.67314499 PostsRegistered 1/2/2009DFW Metroplex, Tx

I have heard "no." So AHA in am and RetinA at night for me.

Loves ~ dancin' & prancin' ~ ♥ ♥ ♥

love me lo­ve my cats1289141839.491860 PostsRegistered 6/22/2006PA

No! Your skin will get irritated.

4bellarose1289142087.633992 PostsRegistered 10/10/2009

Thank you ladies!:)

Then what about a Vitamin C Serum and an AHA at the same time?

Vitamin C serum first then an AHA on top?

Does Vitamin C cancel out an AHA?

(I'm trying to figure this all out) I have all three.:)

lyn in MI1289142991.124391 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan
On 11/7/2010 4bellarose said:

Thank you ladies!:)

Then what about a Vitamin C Serum and an AHA at the same time?

Vitamin C serum first then an AHA on top?

Does Vitamin C cancel out an AHA?

(I'm trying to figure this all out) I have all three.:)

Cleanse (wait 15 minutes for PH to return to normal) - AHA (wait 10 - 15 minutes if possible for best results) - Vitamin C - Moisturize (optional) - SPF.

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

winamac1289143081.18719053 PostsRegistered 8/21/2005Carmel, Indiana

Thanks, LYN, as always. I did know not to use them together. I try to use something without actives over retin a if my face is dry.

Lyn--didn't you say it's ok to use Argan oil over Retin A without negating the benefits of the tretinoin?? I think I remember you stating that. TIA

lyn in MI1289143525.11324391 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan
On 11/7/2010 winamac said:

Thanks, LYN, as always. I did know not to use them together. I try to use something without actives over retin a if my face is dry.

Lyn--didn't you say it's ok to use Argan oil over Retin A without negating the benefits of the tretinoin?? I think I remember you stating that. TIA

You're welcome, winamac. I haven't posted info about applying AO over Retin-A, but I read it here on the QBB. I think that if one applies AO before Retin-A fully absorbs, it would act act a buffer which would be beneficial to those who find Retin-A too irritating.

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

4bellarose1289144226.73992 PostsRegistered 10/10/2009
On 11/7/2010 lyn in MI said:
On 11/7/2010 4bellarose said:

Thank you ladies!:)

Then what about a Vitamin C Serum and an AHA at the same time?

Vitamin C serum first then an AHA on top?

Does Vitamin C cancel out an AHA?

(I'm trying to figure this all out) I have all three.:)

Cleanse (wait 15 minutes for PH to return to normal) - AHA (wait 10 - 15 minutes if possible for best results) - Vitamin C - Moisturize (optional) - SPF.

Thanks Lyn!:)

smhr661289148715.512384 PostsRegistered 9/5/2010Laid Back and Mellow Small Town USA
On 11/7/2010 4bellarose said:

Thank you ladies!:)

Then what about a Vitamin C Serum and an AHA at the same time?

Vitamin C serum first then an AHA on top?

Does Vitamin C cancel out an AHA?

(I'm trying to figure this all out) I have all three.:)

No, you cannot use Vitamin C and AHA at the same time. Read the following;

Skinterra.website

Q: If I am using both Vitamin C and AHA, when should I use which?

A: Vitamin C, in addition to helping diminish fine lines is a powerful anti-oxidant that protects the skin from photo-aging ( sun damage ). It should be used in the morning under a moisturizer and/or a sunscreen. AHA helps remove superficial layers of skin, thus improving the tone and texture of the skin. It is best used before bedtime and left overnight. It is adviseable not to apply these two products at the same time, one on top of the other.

Just my personal feeling, I would never use Retin -A and AHA at the same. Why do that? #1. Both are extremely effective on their own. #2. Both together would be too irritating and much for the skin to handle.

You can use any oil ( not shelf oils ) over Retin-A, and is recommended since Retin-A can dry out skin.

mature, dry, sensitive, makeup optional skin. keep it healthy with NIA24, MD Forte, physical sunscreen and Fancl cleanser.

ElvisShops1289149218.74622 PostsRegistered 1/28/2007

Is it Retin A and benzoyl perioxide that can't go together?? Seems like there is some combo of products that can't go together because one inactivates the other. Hmmm. Can't recall what they are.

“When I feed the hungry, they call me a saint. When I ask why people are hungry, they call me a Communist.”
― Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara, Brazilian archbishop

lyn in MI1289149539.06324391 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan

smhr66 - Thank you for posting. I find the info from Skinterra to be interesting. Many skin care companies include AHA and Vit C in the same product, or in the same regimen.

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

smhr661289150931.022384 PostsRegistered 9/5/2010Laid Back and Mellow Small Town USA
On 11/7/2010 lyn in MI said:

smhr66 - Thank you for posting. I find the info from Skinterra to be interesting. Many skin care companies include AHA and Vit C in the same product, or in the same regimen.

You're welcomeSmile.

mature, dry, sensitive, makeup optional skin. keep it healthy with NIA24, MD Forte, physical sunscreen and Fancl cleanser.

OCGurl1289151457.2077504 PostsRegistered 8/2/2007Palm Desert, CA
On 11/7/2010 lyn in MI said:

smhr66 - Thank you for posting. I find the info from Skinterra to be interesting. Many skin care companies include AHA and Vit C in the same product, or in the same regimen.

Yes, my 20% Vit C serum has glycolic and lactic acid. It is Devita 20% Pro C serum.

As well Skinsceuticals has one that has both C and AHA, probably together in a serum base, done at the right PH, and manufactured by a true skin company is fine, but one over the other without knowing the PH's etc can cause irritation.

it is C and Copper that cancel each other out (L-Absorbic acid C and Dr Pickarts Copper peptides for example)

Personally I wouldnt use Retin A and AHA together, it would be too much for my skin.

Last edited on 11/7/2010

Last edited on 11/7/2010


smhr661289154009.3532384 PostsRegistered 9/5/2010Laid Back and Mellow Small Town USA
On 11/7/2010 OCGurl said:
On 11/7/2010 lyn in MI said:

smhr66 - Thank you for posting. I find the info from Skinterra to be interesting. Many skin care companies include AHA and Vit C in the same product, or in the same regimen.

Yes, my 20% Vit C serum has glycolic and lactic acid. It is Devita 20% Pro C serum.

As well Skinsceuticals has one that has both C and AHA, probably together in a serum base, done at the right PH, and manufactured by a true skin company is fine, but one over the other without knowing the PH's etc can cause irritation.

it is C and Copper that cancel each other out (L-Absorbic acid C and Dr Pickarts Copper peptides for example)

Personally I wouldnt use Retin A and AHA together, it would be too much for my skin.

Last edited on 11/7/2010 some skincare companies combining Vitamin C and AHA's. But it does take the right formulation and PH levels play a part.

You are right it takes the right formulation and PH levels. I'll leave that to scientistsWink.

mature, dry, sensitive, makeup optional skin. keep it healthy with NIA24, MD Forte, physical sunscreen and Fancl cleanser.

lyn in MI1289156486.52324391 PostsRegistered 4/29/2007SW Michigan
On 11/7/2010 OCGurl said:
On 11/7/2010 lyn in MI said:

smhr66 - Thank you for posting. I find the info from Skinterra to be interesting. Many skin care companies include AHA and Vit C in the same product, or in the same regimen.

Yes, my 20% Vit C serum has glycolic and lactic acid. It is Devita 20% Pro C serum.

As well Skinsceuticals has one that has both C and AHA, probably together in a serum base, done at the right PH, and manufactured by a true skin company is fine, but one over the other without knowing the PH's etc can cause irritation.

it is C and Copper that cancel each other out (L-Absorbic acid C and Dr Pickarts Copper peptides for example)

Personally I wouldnt use Retin A and AHA together, it would be too much for my skin.

Last edited on 11/7/2010

Perricone also combines AHA + Vit C ester in certain treatments. I've read to allow AHA/BHA lotions/gels, etc to remain our skin for 15 minutes before we layer other products over them. I've also read that they only remain active for approx 15 minutes anyway, so if we'd like, we can rinse our face before continuing with our AM/PM routine.

@(-_-)@ ~lyn~
♥ Birman =^..^= Servant ♥

poodlpoo1289158930.6034265 PostsRegistered 10/23/2010
On 11/7/2010 lyn in MI said:

I think the following info is included with inserts for Retin-A...

"Unless your doctor tells you otherwise, it is especially important to avoid using the following skin products on the same area as tretinoin:

  • Any other topical acne product or skin product containing a peeling agent (such as benzoyl peroxide, resorcinol, salicylic acid, or sulfur)
  • Hair products that are irritating, such as permanents or hair removal products
  • Skin products that cause sensitivity to the sun, such as those containing spices or limes
  • Skin products containing a large amount of alcohol, such as astringents, shaving creams, or after-shave lotions
  • Skin products that are too drying or abrasive, such as some cosmetics, soaps, or skin cleansers

Using these products along with tretinoin may cause mild to severe irritation of the skin. Although skin irritation can occur, some doctors sometimes allow benzoyl peroxide to be used with tretinoin to treat acne. Usually tretinoin is applied at night so that it does not cause a problem with any other topical products that you might use during the day. Check with your doctor before using topical medicines with tretinoin."

©mayoclinic.com

Last edited on 11/7/2010

LYN-- Would you please help me out? I am new to all this.... I have been purchasing Philosophy, but starting to wonder if I shouldn't be getting "more bang for my buck" so to speak. I would like to know what would be a good regimen? I just purchased the vit c powder from them. But, I was viewing other C serums that seem to be more potent. I thought I read that the powder form was better bcuz it helped stay stable? Anyway, Can you please give me a regimen that would be effective? I hear a lot about AHA and I have nothing like that. Products, and how/when to apply them? Tall order, I know, but I would be very grateful. I have oily skin, very large pores, can handle strong products, and am prone to milia and breakouts. I also have rough texture (gettting smoother "feeling" but not looking as much) and some hyperpigmentation I would like to lessen. I just started using philosophy Purity, MDW, help me retinol, vit. c scrub, the eye hope and hope in a tube. I also have the WHINE serum, but put some on yesterday and have a few small pimples. However, I was silly and have incorporated several of these products at the same time, so I cannot narrow it down. Yesterday I used HIAB and WHINE for the first time, so it is likely one of those, but I doubt it is HIAB. It has not been long enough, but if I had to guess, I would say the only thing I really like is the Vit. C peel. I haven't received the Vit. C powder yet. I know this is long.. Please help me with what to use and when...... So much appreciated!!! TIA.

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Last edited on 11/7/2010

cerinthe1289160807.6932608 PostsRegistered 7/12/2005

I agree with and support everything lyn in MI said!

Remember, many of these 'active ingredients' need a certain pH or certain type of solution or need to have direct contact with the skin to be effective. Even though many companies 'combine' certain ingredients, it doesn't mean those ingredients are at the optimal pH nor concentration level to work appropriately. I think that's the biggest mistake a lot of people make. Vitamin C and AHAs are perfect examples where you REALLY need to be careful and only spend money on a product that has them at the right concentration level and pH and delivered in a way where the product remains stable. Both of these ingredients can easily become inactivated if improperly formulated, and so many companies just toss them in jars and let the consumer figure it out. I read a lot of Paula Begoin's info because its aspect of the product she will address. And who put out that fabulous link to AHA's with all the product pH levels (and cleanser pH levels,) which was fabulous?! That was a great resource!

When dealing with actives, you just need to make choices and prioritize. I think the clinical evidence is strong that if you can tolerate Retin A (prescription,) and work up to using it daily, this is one of the most positive things you can do to build collegan in your skin and minimize appearance of fine lines, wrinkles and keep skin plump. So far, I have not seen clinical evidence, in double blind randomized trials to support other ingredients. Lots of companies make claims, but so far, not a lot of unbiased evidence exists for their performance!

Retin A should only be used at night, on clean dry skin, per your derms and the packages instructions, and a gentle nonreactive moisturizer can be layered over this if skin is dry.

You must use a SPF in the AM (I recommend one with physical blocking ingredients, many people have GREAT suggestions here, I like Fallene's COTZ, which after seeing the Perricone demos, is similar to his no foundation foundation!) with Retin A. I will go so far to say that everyone should be using a SPF, period, everyday. Otherwise you're just making the lines, wrinkles and spots worse. And possibly doubly so because many of our skin products are exfoliating and irritating to our skin, so if you're using those, you're leaving very fresh, new layers of vulnerable skin to be fried by the sun!

So let's say you decide to make Retin A your priority in skin care. Ok. Then the rest of your routine revolves around that. Gentle pH neutral cleansers, an SPF every day, and now you need something to deal with all the flakies which the Retin A causes but without tugging or tearing at the skin. Most people turn to Glycolic acid, an AHA exfoliator with a long history of effectiveness. If so, the most logical time to use it is in the AM, when most flakies are the worst, and you want to rid of them before putting on makeup (flakies and makeup are horrid,) and so on. I think the best delivery system is a AHA liquid on a pad. To wipe, leave that on about 15-20 minutes and then rinse and you have a fresh face to go. (This would be done after a gentle cleansing.) Other methods are in a cream, lotion or even gel.

That would leave room now, a clean slate, for any active ingredients you wish to apply, like Vitamin C. Then your sunscreen. (If you use a foundation, either apply it over the sunscreen, or it should contain signicant amounts of sunscreen and be applied to fully impliment those levels of sun protection.

That is probably one of the best programs out there, from what research has shown. But not all skins can tolerate it. ALL of those ingredients are potentially irritating on their own!

Back to the original question: If you hated using an AHA in the AM, then in theory, you could certainly use it in the evening, before your Retin A, however, it would not be used immediately before the Retin A. Ie: You could cleanse, allow to dry, apply (say a liquid in a pad,) AHA, leave on 15-20 minutes, rinse, dry, allow another 20 minutes to pass, then apply Retin A. IMO that is playing with fire and you'd need very thick oily skin to do it, because the AHA is a real sensitizer and its going to allow that Retin A to really penetrate and possibly irritate your skin much more than it would have without using the peel agent directly before. It is a possibility, but not for the vast majority of people- its probably not a good idea.

But (in general,) don't layer all these actives on top of one another. Again, most MUST have direct contact with the skin and also the creams and lotions and such can potentially change the pH of the skin and either cause skin irritation, or just inactivate each other, or take it other to such low levels of activity, that its not worth the money. I'm always suspicious when companies tell you to use 3 or 4 creams and such-- its usually just money in their pocket, not better results for you. You have to be selective in what you decide to pursue, and figure out what works best for you both financially and for your skin. And a lot of times, the BEST solution, is often to see your dermatologist for prescription level products and/or procedures, for serious issues, rather than spending crazy amounts of money on little jars.

Disclaimer: Paula Begoin is not always right, I don't always agree with her, but she does provide food for thought when looking at skincare, and is often one of the few sane voices in a room who is challenging the skin care/make up industry.

raildog1289161798.2231116 PostsRegistered 9/19/2010

Thank You everybody for the wonderful information! (and questions) I am learning so much.

CERINTHE, What would you recommend for a nonreactive moisturizer and AHA pad/toner?

PS---and facial wash? THX

Last edited on 11/7/2010

Last edited on 11/7/2010


cerinthe1289166665.912608 PostsRegistered 7/12/2005
On 11/7/2010 shygrl said:

Thank You everybody for the wonderful information! (and questions) I am learning so much.

CERINTHE, What would you recommend for a nonreactive moisturizer and AHA pad/toner?

PS---and facial wash? THX

Last edited on 11/7/2010

It erally depends on your skin type and what you prefer, but here are some suggestions (and I hope others will chime in!) I always try and buy on sale and track sales and also buy the least expensive product I can, because I don't have a money tree in my backyard... :)

Oh and I always prefer everything to have no added fragrance or color, minimal added ingredients that might irritate me (no menthol, no citrus oils, etc.,) and so on.

I have said this before, If I can point someone whose skin I don't know to one website, it would probably be paulaschoice.com because she has such a wide range of items for all skin types, none with added fragrance or color, she keeps out most ingredients that she identifies as an irritant, she keeps track of research and tries to put in the best cost effective and research shown ingredients and has good formulations.Again, get on her mailing list (any company's mailing list,) and shop the sales. I hate her sunscreen. :)

Otherwise I like:

Neutrogena Cream Cleanser for sensitive skin. Its water soluble.

The best glycolic cream cleanser: Aqua Glycolic (I use a gentle washcloth to remove all cream cleansers.)

The best foaming cleanser for me: Alpha Hydrox foaming cleanser.

Neither companies Alpha Hydrox nor Aqua Glycolic add fragrance/color. (I hate alpha hydrox's sunscreens.)

Ok: Liquid glycolic, ideally comes on its own pads: I now like Alpha Hydrox's newer pads. They are 14% and they ARE scratchy (biggest downside,) but well soaked, a little goes a long way, and I use these on my cuticles and elbows when I'm done with my face. But some of the least expensive pads out there.

DDF makes a good liquid glycolic toner (correct pH) but I have not tried it recently. Cost effective though if you get your own pads, your own left over jar, put a weeks worth or two in at a time and make your own presoaked pads, or just use it on a fresh pad daily straight from the toner bottle. DDF uses alcohol which is drying, Alpha Hydrox does not and even puts some green tree extract in.

I signup for email notification of sales from Alpha Hydrox at their website: Neotericcosmetics.com

Nonreactive moisturizers:

Ok, something gentle, soothing, etc. Complex 15 is LIGHT and full of squalene oil. How about just patting some natural oils on like: Nilotica Shea butter (LOVE,) squalene oil, argan oil, marula oil and so on. You can also add these to lighter moisturizers to 'pump up' their richness and add natural vitamins and antioxidants.

100% Pure makes some great soothing moisturizers as well as some with more active ingredient lists. I really like their skincare, but its a bit pricy for me. At least their jars maintain the activity of their natural ingredients by minimizing air contact and touching with fingers (pumps that minimize air contact.) 100percentpure.com

Other people have mentioned the newer Vanicream and Cerave moisturizers, those would be good (Cerave has a good cleanser too.) Ok, just checked out the ingredients of "Cerave Facial Moisturizing Lotion PM," and it looks good (I like glycerin or natural oil based moisturizers for me, not petroleum or mineral oil based products.) 3 oz for about $13 on drugstore.com is a good price and its a pump! (I don't like jars and anything I buy in a jar, like Alpha Hydrox's souffle, is inexpensive! Pumps keep fingers from going in over and over and recontaminating a product.) I consider products that contain ceramides or niacinamide or hyaluronic acid all soothing and gentle. Stay away from any AHA or BHA, any form of vitamin A, retinol, etc., Silicones are ok, but I prefer not to have them at night. The Cerave hydrating cleanser looks nice too! That could be a great alternative to the Alpha Hydrox one. I would get this line in stores, just from reading labels here...

If you need something heavier, the 'neutrogena light night cream' is ok, but ... very very neutral and is based on sesame seed oil (my skin LOVES sunflower oil, if you see anything with sunflower oil in it as a primarily ingredient, I say thumbs UP, but sesame seed oil, which is what they use for their body oil, is fine,) and petrolatum. VERY neutral. And no fragrance or color added from what I can tell and reasonably priced.

I'm just going through the drugstore.com listing and looking at ingredient lists... you can read reviews, see if a product contains something you don't want, and then go to the store armed with information. Anything with added fragrance should be tossed. Any good face cream should be capable (especially a neutral one,) of being used around the eyes, and you don't want fragrance and added color there...

I'm looking at the whole Cerave line and it is pretty nice. I'm really impressed from reading their ingredient decks, pricing and packaging! Not as crazy about Vanicream which is petroleum based, but if you like that, hey, that's fine. Gotta find what works for you.

When I use Retin A, I will use the nilotica shea butter over it (after about half an hour, literally before I go to bed. I often use that as my handcream and neck cream too.) A lot of natural oils have natural vitamins and for me, my body reacts to them. I also use nilotica for my magic windburn cure- it calms my red sensitive skin in a way that vaseline or other petroleum products do not come close to doing.

Ok, there is an overly long list of recommendations and why. I always feel the why is important, cause then you can go into the store with power and make your own decisions. And also, visit a store with a great return policy while you're looking, so it will be easy to exchange items until one works for you, and don't forget sunscreen!!!!

cerinthe1289167053.922608 PostsRegistered 7/12/2005

Also, I believe that using natural based oil products (which again, contain natural vitamins and antioxidants and so on,) help my skin repair itself, while many petroleum based products just sit on the surface and keep whatever moisture is already there, in. And there's a place for that, (especially with oily facial skinned people, imo,) but I feel that natural ingredients do a better job at skin repair and skin barrier support. Just my opinion.

BeautyAddi­ction1289167752.5775777 PostsRegistered 6/8/2007NY

lyn in Mi, was it you that said we could use Isomers Vit C and Isomers Copper P together? I hope so cause that's what I've been doing.

Thanks.

OVER 60: SKIN - menopausal, dry, not sensitive, few eye wrinkles, mouth to chin (puppet) lines.
HAIR - dry, dyed, curly, frizzy shoulderr length/NOW STRAIGHTENED

winamac1289168570.02719053 PostsRegistered 8/21/2005Carmel, Indiana
On 11/7/2010 lyn in MI said:
On 11/7/2010 winamac said:

Thanks, LYN, as always. I did know not to use them together. I try to use something without actives over retin a if my face is dry.

Lyn--didn't you say it's ok to use Argan oil over Retin A without negating the benefits of the tretinoin?? I think I remember you stating that. TIA

You're welcome, winamac. I haven't posted info about applying AO over Retin-A, but I read it here on the QBB. I think that if one applies AO before Retin-A fully absorbs, it would act act a buffer which would be beneficial to those who find Retin-A too irritating.

Thanks so much!

raildog1289172695.7231116 PostsRegistered 9/19/2010

CERINTHE,

Thank You, Thank You, Thank you! It is hard for me to articulate the words to express how appreciative I am of the information you share. How kind! I hope someday I can pass it forward. Have a great evening! I am going to keep reading and listening to all of you wonderful ladies. shy


cerinthe1289174610.1572608 PostsRegistered 7/12/2005

I am glad I could help, there are LOTS of smart ladies here with great ideas and opinions!

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